The last time this subject was discussed on the forum, I told about my sad experiences with gauged rollers. Whereupon I got an email from a person who said they would make me a gauged set that would be right. I sent them everything they asked for. That is the last I ever heard from them.

I am still waiting to see a set of gauged rollers that make the tops of all the strings lie in a dead straight co-planar line. After many sets on all my PSG's, I have yet to find one that fits that discription.

One of the theories that I totally disagree with; and one that apparently results in at least some manufacturers of gauged rollers NOT living up to the claim, is that you only have to gauge the outer couple on each end. This is just not true. In order for the tops of every string to lay in a dead straight line, EVERY roller MUST be gauged differently IMO.

This is due to the fact that the string does not rest on the top of the roller; rather in a grove with an angled wall. This brings in some critical geometry and/or trigonmetry. And it is here where I think it is beyond the capability of most machinists, unless they have a CNC lathe AND they KNOW how to program it correctly.

Also, the differences in gauges is not uniform throughout the set. This further says every roller must be gauged IMO.

In any case. I am waiting to see a set. But I am not holding my breath.

String rattle at the first fret is, and has been my number one pet peave on steel guitars since its inception. Maybe one day someone will make infinitely adjustable (up and down) nut rollers, then we can fine tune our own. That will be a great improvement when it happens.

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In order for the tops of every string to lay in a dead straight line, EVERY roller MUST be gauged differently IMO.

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Not true, Carl. We already discussed this last year at http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/006799.html which includes the link to my chart for making these rollers. It is NOT a "theory" as you put it. The math clearly shows that 3 to 5 rollers can usually be made equal.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Roy T.

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http://www.houstonsteelman.com/RoyT/

[This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 04 May 2004 at 07:17 AM.]

Very respectfully, we will agree to disagree.

I can assure you that I spent a lot of time verifying my numbers.

I never thought about drilling the holes oversize. But I imagine it might end up like the eccentric ones. After having many gauged sets made for me, and not one of them right, I am close to believing the only answer is adjustable (up and down) nut roller supports.

But maybe a machinist or other person may come up with a way to solve the problem. I simply have difficulty believing that they are easy to make, with the many complaints about gauged rollers not working; including yours truly.

When I get a set that works, I will be one happy player for like I have said repeatedly, strings rattling at the 1st few frets is my number ONE peat peave on a steel guitar.

IMO, Gibson, Fender, Gretch, etc would have long since solved this problem, if regular guitars had to deal with it. Since they are not played with a bar it is not important. But for a steel guitar I believe it is ultra important.

Oh well.

What a great idea, and I bet it wouldn't be hard to implement on a new instrument.

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"Would you be willing to give that up in exchange for no rattles at the first fret?"

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Very respectfully,,,no

Another reason is I learned a good technique from the late and great Mac Atcheson. And that is rolling the bar over the nut rollers in both directions, when you want open strings; instead of lifting the bar. This is just too good to ever give up also.

To make this work with given strings dropping out early or late, the tops of the strings must be higher than any part of the nut roller. Something I have found lacking in all too many cases.

There have been a number of choices over the years; and some are still offered between various guitars. One was mentioned earlier sighting the GFI which does not use rollers at all.

Some things to consider:

1. A grooveless roller is not a preferred system for several reasons.

2. No roller at all, EVEN on keyless generally isn't either.

3. Slotting a groove in a fixed shaft has been tried, but it causes a grating sound when given pedals are engaged.

Ron Lashley Sr and I talked about nut rollers at length once. And it appears that the V grooved aluminum nut roller is the most desired method. One of the reasons for this is, the tone of any string is very dependent on the two points it is scaled from. The changer and nut to be precise on PSG's.

The material, shape and size all play a definite role in this scenario. Just one example of an inferior design is the rounded groove roller. It has been said and I agree, this robs some of the sustain. The best method appears to be when the V groove only makes contact with the string at two points.

I said all the above to emphasis that in order to cure a problem, one of the first requirements is one does not sacrifice something else. To date, I know of NO system that has been tried that works, let alone does not sacrifice one or more things.

Time and time again, suggestions of how to make gauged rollers have been put forward. I respect this. And I study each one. The sad truth is, any gauged set I have ever tried has been woefully lacking in this regard. So for whatever reason, it must not be as simple as it appears; or else the problem would not continue to generate new threads on this forum.

In my soul, I believe the only real answer again is infinitely adjustable (up and down) nut rollers. To me this cures the problem completely, and I see NO negatives. This would allow the favored V groove nut roller without modification. The only mod would be the holder which would go up and down.

Along this idea, Mac and came up with a system that was quite simple. and I believe one day a manufacturer is going to do it. But I may not live to see it. It simply requires that the nut holder be individual square pieces of stock. And all holders fit tightly into a milled groove across the keyhead ass'y. A set screw in each holder would cause it to be adjustable up and down.

We further felt that the first and last holders would not need adjustments. I lean strongly on this one point lest they get tilted badly thru repeated adjustments.

It is my impression, that it is and has been, a very low piority for most all the builders. As long as that prevails, this type of thread will continue with no resolve in the near future, IMO.

Incidently, I received an email from the gentleman that made the offer to me. He informs me they are indeed working on them. I am pleased to hear this. And if they do make a set that leaves the tops of all 12 strings dead flat and coplanar on my Universal, I will sing their praises on this forum,

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Doug Earnest
The only Zum Keyless U12, Fender Cyber Twin

Carl,
The best idea on an adjustable bridge is to make it like the changer fingers, mount them in square holes/grooves and have them adjustable with an allen wrench. This may, or may not add 1/2" or so to the guitar. My statement on V/U grooves is not to agree, or disagree with anyone.

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Wayne Hetzler
04 BSG SD10
98 Carter SD10
00 Carter SD10
Evans FET500
Nashville 1000

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Vice President, MASGA
New Mullen U12 (2004)
Dekley 8/4 (1984)
ShoBud Professional (1969)D10 8/4