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Author
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Topic: Popping strings left and right!!!.. help.
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Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 12:58 PM
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NO brand names... a few guys here will know it but please don't reveal as I don't want to start a new flame war. Anyway my 9 mo. old steel is breaking the 3rd about every two hours of play. My old main squeeze broke about 2 a YEAR. I put a film of oil under all my strings and always have as it cuts WAAYYY down on breakage,but it does not help on this guitar. I have found some problems with the roller nut , and they are being addressed as we speak,but I'm not sure if that will cause constant breaking at the changer. It has done this since new.
Also the 5th string takes at least 1/2 hour to stabilize tuning. You put the string on, tune it stretch it, pedal it. but it KEEPS returning flat.. for a VERY long time. Once it does stabilize, it seems ok.. until it breaks in about 6 hours...
I have never seen this tuning stabilization on the B string problem in 28 years of owning and playing several brands, but was told by a well known steel guitar builder and player that he has seen it several times on different brands and the pattern is always the same. B string [0nly] keeps returning flat after pedaling for up to an hour and once it stabilizes,problem gone.. I do not like dealing with this and am close to getting out the chain saw... or at least clicking on to ebay... any thoughts???/ bob
[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 04 December 2004 at 06:41 PM.] |
Jim Peters
Member From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 02:33 PM
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Bob, I was breaking way too many strings on my GFI Ultra, at the changer. There were ridges where the strings were breaking, on the very top of the changers. I bought some semi-chrome polish as Scotty's, and polished LIGHTLY all the ridges till I couldn't feel them. I have not broken a string since( knock on wood). Check for those ridges. Hope this helps. JP |
Toby Rider
Member From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 02:36 PM
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How often should the .11 on the E9th neck be expected to break? I think I break about one per month, and I practice steel a couple hours every day. Is that an acceptable rate of breakage? |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 03:45 PM
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i've been thru it!bought a new sho-bud in 1978,break strings fast as you put them on,i polished the tops of pullers,did all i knew to do,still break,sometimes 2or3 string as fast as I put them on,i was afraid to go and play,{snap}well i finally changed strings to a different company.helped a bunch.don't know what to tell you,i have tryed most of them out there,now i am using Emmons strings,put one on, last for days.you are gonna break one every so often,just happens.goes with the inst.we play,but change once a month no problem.i thought it was my fault,because i used the pedals to much,but not so.some strings are better than others.haven't been any help,but polish puller,check roller,then try different types strings.i'm now running a .012on my pro 3,no problem.
good luck farris |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 03:46 PM
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quote:
I have found some problems with the roller nut , and they are being addresed as we speak,but I'm not sure if that will cause constant breaking at the changer.
Yes, sticky roller nuts will definitely cause breakage. Do whatever it takes to have all nut rollers spinning free. This might involve loosening the strings and removing the rollers, then running a file in the slots to debur and widen the slot slightly. |
RON PRESTON
Member From: Dodson, Louisiana, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 04:42 PM
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Bob, How LONG has this been going on? From the time you bought it? Try this, and I DO hope this works. (IF this IS the Problem) Your 3rd PULL ROD Very POSSIBLY MIGHT happen to be adjusted slightly TOO TIGHT, in other words, You don't have enough "ROD TRAVEL", resulting in too SHORT of a "COMPLETE" pull. Try Backing BOTH the 3rd AND the 6th COMPLETLY OFF, (The Tuning Hex Screws on both RAISES) Also, don't Forget to Look and see if your PEDAL that raises both G# has the proper pedal "Travel". (From Point "A," when the String BEGINS to RAISE, to point "B," when the pedal "STOPS" SOLID, and also, There needs to be just a SMALL amount of Pedal "SLACK" BEFORE it STARTS to RAISE. Start with the THIRD string, and adjust it and tune to YOUR preference to where it feels SMOOTH and RETURNS to the proper G# pitch, then ajust the SIXTH string, and I think you might be OK. Try ALL OTHER OPTIONS FIRST though, because I am NOT sure that THIS is the Problem. Always remember to ADJUST and TUNE the string that has the LONGEST pull FIRST. Try this and see if your string breakage reduces SOMEWHAT to the point that you can NOW feel "FREE" to PURCHASE that OTHER NEW STEEL you've had your EYE ON for some time now because of the "MEGA-BUCKS" you are SAVING by NOT buying ALL them CASES of .011s from BRAND "XXX"   ------------------
Emmons S-10 4 & 5
Evans FET 500, Session 400 LTD, ProFex 11 |
Gary Preston
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 05:07 PM
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Bob i bought some bad strings once and as soon as i tried to tune them up ''snap'' went the strings . The Third needs to tune up a little slower than some of the others
( thats what i think anyway ). I have never had that problem with my Sho-Bud or my Williams ! I can only repeat what has been said before ,check the ''roller nut ''. Gary .
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 04 December 2004 06:23 PM
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Lots of good advice here. Ron makes a extreamly valid point; as most folks don't realize that they are using more tension to pull the string than needed. Also I might add >Ditch the Emmons strings they are Junk!!! Can't believe your not using the best quality string made?? JAGWIRE; you will notice a HUGE difference in breakage even if you have: burrs; too much tension; bad rollers; not enough wraps; not in line from roller to post; and bla bla...
Try stabilizing the problem strings moreso at the tuning post...7 wraps. And try all those other things; but before you do...get rid of the bad wire man.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 04 December 2004 at 06:25 PM.] |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 06:40 PM
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Ricky.. I do use generic 011 strings.. GUILTY!!! However I've been using them for 28 years and have never had this kind of breakage problem... I stated that I always put a tiny drop of machine oil on the changer under the string. My MSA and My ProIII 3rds would both last weeks ... This new guitar is from a well known quality builder and is not known as being a string popper. He thinks its from a bad batch of nut rollers.. I sure hope so,I don't even want to play this thing anymore. We'll see what happens.... bob |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 07:07 PM
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What is the problem with your rollers?  |
Steve Hinson
Member From: Hendersonville Tn USA
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posted 04 December 2004 07:18 PM
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I have used Emmons strings for years...NEVER a problem... |
Frank McBride
Member From: Clendenin, West Virginia, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 07:45 PM
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My guitar has never broke a string [Somthing is awrong with my guitar] |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 04 December 2004 08:10 PM
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Emmons strings are junk????Hmmmm..... |
Billy Joe Bailey
Member From: Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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posted 04 December 2004 08:50 PM
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Yall just send me all your Emmom's strings now that they have been classed as junk and I'll use e'm up for yall especial those 11 an a half's------------------
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Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 04 December 2004 08:57 PM
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Yes the Emmons string thing is my own personal opinion; sorry if and don't mean to offend anyone, but to my ears they go dead too early and don't stabilize good enough in my book. Bob; I'm sorry this is happening to ya..
One would think that if the rollers roll; then they are good. But there might be a pressure problem> meaning once the string puts pressure on the roller; they may not be rolling. That would cause undo tension and pressure at the finger end and would break there. If there are burrs in the rollers; then they would break at the roller. If your breaking the strings at the fingers; than something in line is causing too much tension on the string at the top of the finger pull(or bad batch of strings)....and Ron touched on that and also more stability at the tuning key would help. But yes if you've heard from others or the manufacturer that something is wrong with the rollers; than that might very well be the culprit.
Many manufacturers of strings have an inconsistancy problem. I've gone through and tried every string in the book and I even have an Ernie Ball string endorsement for going on 6 years now(and they are a good consistant string); but I don't even use them as I only use the Jagwire; simply because the Jagwire string is the most consistant string in tone and tension that I've ever experienced> here's why.
All the other strings I've used I would put the same gauges on and tune them up and ok I play> cool. But first time I put Jagwires on; I noticed something very very cool> I had to retune my raises as where they were set for every other string; they are now pulling a little sharp with the Jagwire; and do ya know what that means??? Yep you guessed it> it takes LESS tension to pull the same gauge Jagwire string than any other string I've come across and that makes for a longer life and less detuning and less tone loss.
Sorry I'm so long winded and seem one-sided on the matter; but I am so sold on the Jagwire string and my pride for that string runs close to the pride I have for my Mom and Dad(not quite but close).
Ricky |
Cal Sharp
Member From: Gnashville
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posted 04 December 2004 09:37 PM
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Buddy told me years ago that Emmons strings and Fender strings are made by the same manufacturer - Squire. I don't remember what other companies sell the same strings. Strings are like tennis shoes - they might have different names and different prices, but most of them are made at the same factory in China or Thailand. |
Cal Sharp
Member From: Gnashville
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posted 04 December 2004 09:40 PM
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The tennis shoes, not the strings. :-0> |
Cal Sharp
Member From: Gnashville
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posted 04 December 2004 09:48 PM
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Toby-I get 3 to 4 nights out of a .11, playing about 75% E9th. I always change it after 3 nights. |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 04:34 AM
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The roller is binding and grinding terribly when strings are off.... On A NEW GUITAR!.This is with finger pressure. They did however seem to move with strings installed and tuned up when pedaling. The strings break at the changer.. NOT the roller usually.I took the roller nut apart,took a little Scothbrite to the shaft,oiled it up,new strings,POP.. another .011 in less than two hours. The builder is sending me a new roller shaft and rollers. I wish the rollers were NOT made of aluminum,but they are.... I dunno,, We'll se what happens,but I am really not a happy camper right now. If I can't get it straightened out, I may send it to the builder and maybe they can get it taken care of before the waranntee runs out.... bob |
Willis Vanderberg
Member From: Bradenton, FL, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 05:07 AM
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Well I'm with Ricky on this one. If you have not tried Jagwire strings you owe it to yourself to do it.I do break a third on occasion.But usually they last until I change strings. I am running a 011.5 on my third.I have also broken acouple of fifths in the last year. Jagwire stainless are the brightest purest sounding strings I have ever heard. A word of caution here, you will no doubt have to change your settings on the amp and effects with the Jags.Also , depending on your pickups, you may want to go the the Nickel Jags.Some pick ups can't handle the brightness of stainless and sound very thin.
Besides all that Danny Hullihen is a great guy and a fine picker too. My biased two pennies.
Old Bud.PS: After you get the Jags, try a Hilton pedal and Brad's Black Box.( I didn't forget )
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John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 05:17 AM
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I had a similar post here recently about a bad batch of strings. There was an expressed opinion that you can encounter a bad batch.
I broke 3 strings just trying to install them. They also stretched and took a lot of pedal pushing before they stabilized.
I installed a new set of Jagwires(purchased through the forum) and had no more problems..............JD |
Samuel E. White
Member From: Greeneville TN.
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posted 05 December 2004 07:05 AM
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I personally like the Jag Wire and also the Cobra Coil. I have had great luck with both.I practice 3 times a day for a couple hours each time I practice.On my Fessy I did not break a string for 6 to 8 months. I sometimes don't change strings for a year with no breakage.On my new Emmons LaGrande III I can not say yet as I have had it 3 weeks now and so far it has not broken a string yet.It has a .11.5 string on the 3rd string.Now with my big mouth it may break on me.
Sam White |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 05 December 2004 07:17 AM
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quote:
"The roller is binding and grinding terribly when strings are off...."
Well, there's your problem.
That has to be fixed. I have owned what I suspect is your brand of "new guitar' for years and never had that problem. Mechanical problems can happen to anyone. The proof of a good company is how they resolve your problem.
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Bill Crook
Member From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance
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posted 05 December 2004 07:37 AM
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As my PSG has a habit of breaking .011 strings (most often before I get them up to pitch) I went to useing .010 strings for the 3rd (G#) string. I now generally get a couple of months playing out of it before it breaks at the changer. I have a couple of ideas as to why they (the .011 and the .010)break.1) I think that the wrapp that holds the round (Brass ?) device that slipps over the pin in the changer is much too long and if you look at the string as it curves over the changer,the point it allways breaks is where the wrapp stopps. This tells me that is that where the string is BENDING, not streaching. As we all know when you bend a piece of wire, it will break at that point. 2) Now, If the pin is future away from the curve of the changer top, this would help strighten out the bending point of the string. The next fix would be to modify the way the OEM wrapps the wire around the "Brass" ring. (Which I don't think will happpen) I have went to useing a.010 string for the G# (3rd) string. As It dosen't require as much tension to get it up to the correct pitch,(Don't make any difference as to wheather you use JT or Stright up tunning) it dosen't tend to break as often as the .011 or the .011.5 strings. Now, with all that said, I know that some folks feel that the .010 strings are a bit more tinnny sounding than the .011's , the fact is that 99.9% of players,and audiunces cain't tell the difference. As the pick-ups on the PSG are VERY hot(705,710,etc,etc, and even the non-humbuckin" pickups) and as most players tend to hit the 3rd string harder,reguardless of if the 3rd string is the dominate or not)it tends to ring out more. This is my findings !!!!
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http://home.comcast.net/~crookwf/ http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/crookwf/my_photos [This message was edited by Bill Crook on 05 December 2004 at 07:39 AM.] |
BobG
Member From: Holmdel, NJ
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posted 05 December 2004 10:36 AM
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I just had the same experience (nightmare!) with the .011s'. I broke seven in the first set..As soon as I'd get them up to pitch they would break as soon as I stepped on the pedal. I had to play the rest f the night without the G#.
Last night I switched to the .010s and I made it throught the night without a problem... I'll just stick with them for now on. ------------------
Bob Grado, Williams D10 (lefty), Peavey 1000,
Profex ll.
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Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 11:10 AM
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Are you using Equal Temperment,
(or Mesopotamian) or "Just Intonation".Some guitars are just jinxed. Seriously though, on my S___ B___ ( no brand names, rarely will an .011 work for me more than a night. .010s are the ticket, among them GHS seem to be the best for me. Some of my rollers are stuck solid. Old SBs didn't even have them. Also only three wraps around the tuning lessens the length you are bringing up to tension. On all strings smaller than .020 I take two wraps of the string around itself to keep it from slipping. EJL |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 05 December 2004 12:51 PM
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quote:
Seriously though, on my S___ B___ ( no brand names, rarely will an .011 work for me more than a night. .010s are the ticket, among them GHS seem to be the best for me. Some of my rollers are stuck solid. Old SBs didn't even have them.
There lies that problem Eric; as the rollers need to roll and you won't break strings; and also, All Sho-bud's had rollers.
quote:
Also only three wraps around the tuning lessens the length you are bringing up to tension. On all strings smaller than .020 I take two wraps of the string around itself to keep it from slipping.
The length is set from finger to tuning post and the amount of wraps doesn't make the string longer or shorter from those points> However; the less amount of wraps you do on the tuning post; lessens the stability of that end of the string; therefore putting more pressure/tension on the finger end of the string and there you will have more breakage yet again.
Ricky |
Steve Hinson
Member From: Hendersonville Tn USA
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posted 05 December 2004 01:21 PM
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...plus the edge of the hole where the string goes thru can cut the string in two...I was always told to try and get a half-dozen turns on the plain strings... |
Marco Schouten
Member From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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posted 05 December 2004 01:37 PM
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What strikes me is that th builder thinks it's a bad batch of rollers.Don't they check what they're putting together??? ------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp
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Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 01:46 PM
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quote:
All Sho-bud's had rollers.
Back in the 70's I saw an old Sho-Bud D-9 that didn't have nut rollers. |
Roger Shackelton
Member From: Everett, Wa.
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posted 05 December 2004 01:53 PM
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I believe the first Nut Rollers that Shot Jackson used on his guitars was the ball ends from the guitar strings.Roger |
Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 05 December 2004 02:00 PM
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All Sho-bud's had rollers.
The old Mavericks didn't have rollers. Just had a solid nut. But.....if the roller doesn't roll the string will break, either from rubbing back and forth or catching and snapping at the changer.
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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200,Hilton pedal |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 02:15 PM
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RD/ I certainly defer to your hands on with more of them then I have. I do remember specifically Richard Edge had a double neck Sho~Bud that I believe was a D10 but I remember clearly the lack of rollers. Maybe it was a custom. He's gone now. Bobby Dixon's old Wright Custom as pictured in the SI auction shots didn't have them either.For all purposes a couple of my PIII rollers have been frozen for longer than I was aware of, and I only seem to snap strings on the rough spots on my grooves that are after 26 year, deeper than the strings. (I freed them up when I caught it last week.) The tension in foot pounds can't change between the rollers and nut for bringing uniform diameter strings to a certain pitch, save, having it tighter behind the rollers, as you say a binding on the roller end. This even if you have a half mile wound around the tuning peg. I've always thought that it was exposing more string to stress. Once on a while the burrs on the pegs will do it, and I've found them broken there only a couple times. I got a small jewelers file and deburred all mine as they came to be a problem. I don't typicaly break .010s before I change them out after a couple weeks of gigging, either full weeks, or hard weekends, even with things worn out as bad as they are. I break .038s more than .037s, and Low Cs once in a while from banging things on them loading or unloading. Usually mine break right where they leave the finger, and usually it's because they got bumped, or my blocking "bounce" weakens them there. Sounds like Mr C, after making sure the rollers aren't binding, there aren't any burrs,on the fingers, or other visually copped things, does need to try some different strings. I like the GHS because they have a shorter wound area. Strings and their batches are funny. I've gotten batched what seemed to all have "bends" in the same place throughout the pack, which I take as a damaged shipment that got discounted. The last set of D'Addarios I put on a month ago looked more like ribbons under the light, and went stone dead in one night. I just had them laying around. Good Luck. EJL |
Barney Y. Miller
Member From: Covington, GA, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 03:14 PM
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I have been building pedal steel guitars for 15 years for my friends and others around in this area. I found the problem with string breakage is much greater when standard keys are installed on the neck which as compared to keyless guitars is much less due to the fact that on 12 string instrument i.e. requires at least 6 inches from the nut roller to the key head. On my single 12, which is keyless, the distance from the nut to the tuner is 1/2 inch which gives me a greater fret scale (25 1/8th in.) . I did experience breakage on the 5th and 3rd strings until I removed the nut rollers and replaced with polished, solid grooved nut. For experiment only I have used the same 3rd and 5th string for many months without breakage. I don't know the brand name of the strings but I aquired them from Bill Stafford a couple of years ago and have been using them regularly on my other string since then. Jagwire strings are the next best thing that I have tried. |
Jerry Van Hoose
Member From:
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posted 05 December 2004 04:44 PM
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I've seen many old Sho Buds too that weren't equipped with roller nuts, only grooves. It's been a long time, but I think they may have been the "fingertip" design as well as the "Maverick" model. Presently, I think that Bobbe S. has a "permanent" on his website without rollers. Anyway, freeing up those rollers is usually an easy fix & it can happen to any of them. A file, sandpaper or emory cloth, good lubricant. |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 05 December 2004 04:48 PM
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I'm sorry; I don't consider the Maverick a "Sho~bud"..ha...I guess I should of been more specific. And Jim; the D-9 you saw was made before the D-10 Permanent..ha...probably right around 1960 give or take; and a very rare bird that is. I guess I should explain in my book  a Sho~bud is from the start of the D-10 Permanent until about 1978 Model, then I'm no longer thinking Sho~bud.
Sounds like Bob has cornered the prob. with the Rollers; hopefully that will fix his prob. and make him interested in playing that Steel again> good luck.
Ricky
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Bill Ford
Member From: Graniteville SC Aiken
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posted 05 December 2004 04:57 PM
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Bob,
Try putting a drop of oil on the string at the roller, if that fixes/helps, then the roller could be the prob. Have you tried a different brand, or gauge string? My first "real" pedal steel was a first generation Fender 400, no rollers, I modified the string hook on the changer, and kept oil on both bridges and kept breakage to a minimum,even with a G# .011.Ricky,(here I go agin) oops reread your post..sorry Bill[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 05 December 2004 at 05:27 PM.] [This message was edited by Bill Ford on 05 December 2004 at 05:29 PM.] |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 05:20 PM
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Bob, is that the same guitar you hated when you first got it? If it is, why don't you ask the builder about it????? |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 06:56 PM
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Stephen.. This is the second one. I don't play steel much anymore.. I regrettably have to play lead and sing[rock band]. but geez a string every two hours. ouch! She breaks b's too but the thirds are the killer.To all guys that responded with suggestions. I have been at this a long time and am familiar with some of your ideas. I checked the rollers and they are NOT right when the strings are off. The are GRINDING on a guitar that has probably less tha 25 hours of play time total. I guess I dont understand aluminum rollers on a hardened shaft. The aluminum HAS to lose and these are real rough.. They DO seem to roll when playing,but I can't tell how much. With strings off,if you put thumb pressure on the rollers and try to turn them,it feels like running a rasp file over a rusty pipe.. real bad. I will wait to see what happens when I get the new parts and play the axe a week or two. I can not at this time go to Jawires because I need to use the same string I have used for 28+years [Ernies] as an indicator ... If I make the repairs and my string life is back where it should be,I'll know all is well. If I still break one every two hours,she goes to ebay and I buy another MSA.. I WILL NOT deal with ANY headache musical instrument. My MSA 3rds lasted probably 25 hours.. some more some less.. No Jags needed! Even My PRO III 3rds lasted probably 15 or 20. This is a well built guitar I have and most guys report super string life,so maybe I just need these properly machined rollers.. I just wish they weren't made of aluminum... Doesn't anyone use brass or stainless anymore???? bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 05 December 2004 at 06:58 PM.] [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 05 December 2004 at 06:58 PM.] |
Scott Appleton
Member From: Half Moon Bay, California, USA
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posted 05 December 2004 07:35 PM
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ernie Ball met him some years back .. never use his strings on steel they break too fast. Jagwire are the
best yet the staniless ones last forever.------------------
Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 + JBL D130 |
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