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Author
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Topic: That Dang Ninth String... Revisited
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Wayne Baker
Member From: Vacaville California
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posted 26 December 2004 03:39 AM
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Seems like almost a year now since I asked... Whats the deal with the ninth string. I received several replys and some good lessons as well. Seems like the ninth string has kinda' grown on me and has shaped "my" sound. One might even say, it has become a huge part of "my" sound. I can't seem to live without it. Thanks to all you for the help.  Wayne Baker |
John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 27 December 2004 05:29 AM
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Wayne, I can't live without any of my strings.........JD |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 27 December 2004 06:35 AM
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Man I've been at this pedal steel thing the better part of 30 years,and I still hardly touch that string!.. I am so used to NOT including it in my string grips,that it feels alien when I even TRY to do something with it... I'm SO ashamed........ |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 27 December 2004 08:50 AM
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Bob...if that's really the case, maybe you should look into changing your set up. I've seen numerous 10 string tunings here on the forum that lose the D and add other lower notes. Might be worth considering?As for me, the D is the KEY!
It's a major factor in my chording and speed picking on E9. |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 27 December 2004 08:50 AM
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7th string, 9th string, & C pedal, they're just for photographic symmetry. Nobody ever uses them |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 27 December 2004 11:52 AM
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I'm with you, Rick! That 'D' opens so many doors on the E9 tuning, and facilitates countless extended chords and interesting voicings. They'd have to pry my 9th string out of my cold, dead..... (oops, that's going a little far!) RR |
Archie Nicol
Member From: Ayrshire, Scotland
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posted 27 December 2004 02:42 PM
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`Photographic symmetry`? Ooooh! Get you. |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 28 December 2004 05:33 AM
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I went to the U-12 from an extended E9th tuning and stayed with it for almost twenty years and never really did get comfortable with having to raise the 9th string B to D or as I did later, lower the 8th string to D. A couple of years ago, I changed back to an Extended E9th type of universal tuning but tuned the 9th string to C# so with my E's lowered it'd be like having a C6th with a D in the middle of it. I still have to use a knee lever for the D but it's in the right place and unlike the U-12 there's a B string right below it where you'd normally find one. I play with about 3 or 4 differnt bands where I live and I'm usually the only lead instrument. In one group we do "Pretty Woman" and I can do the guitar intro on steel with that D in there on string 9. On a 10 stringer if you lower your 9th string to C# then when you're doing scale things with the E's lowered your bottom 3 strings become the 1st three notes of the scale and then let off of the knee lever and you've got the 4th on string 8 and then the 5th is right there on string 7 etc. So in my estimation the 9th string is very useful. I'd like to raise it to D# at a later date as I've been experimenting with that and it holds a lot of good things too....JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
Dave Grafe
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 28 December 2004 11:52 AM
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I played with the 9th string tuned to C# on my S10 E9 for the last thirty years, only recently caved in and started tuning it to the "traditional" D - figured that if "everybody's doin' it" then I must be missin' something. At least now I don't feel so much the freak (as far as tuning the old axe goes, anyway).The C# on string 9 helps a lot when playing swing stuff. I'm thinking of adding another lever change there to take advantage of it. I tend to play quite a bit of western swing material on my S10 and that dominant 7 (D) can really mess up a good 6th chord if it gets hit in the heat of battle. ------------------
 Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion
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Tommy Allison
Member From: Transfer, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 28 December 2004 04:34 PM
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I gave a U-12 a try out about 6-8 weeks ago. Took me about 30 seconds to realize I couldn't get along without that D string. |
Gary Preston
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 28 December 2004 06:29 PM
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The ''D'' is good for rythum patterns that i rely on very much . Also in playing some
songs . You can get some ''C-6th ''sounds with it also . Many good uses for the ''D''
String . Thanks ,Gary . |
Paul King
Member From: Gainesville, Texas, USA
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posted 28 December 2004 06:36 PM
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I use the 9th string quiet a bit. If one string breaks I feel I have lost a lot. There are some very nice voicings that use the 9th string as well as some vamps. |
Jerry Warner
Member From: Charleston, West Virginia, USA
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posted 28 December 2004 09:35 PM
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man that 9th string is so much into my playing, how could you do without it but i'm sure some of you guy's can do without that string, so what do you do when you get to that point and don 't have it, so lets some of you pro:s give your point's, come on you great pro's let us know on this point and we will leave you along, bobbe seymour where are you, give us something to help you are the man.----thanks |
Tony Palmer
Member From: Lincoln, RI USA
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posted 29 December 2004 06:51 PM
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Rick, I wouldn't be caught dead without my 9th string either, but I'm not familiar with using it in speed picking.
Care to give an example? |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 29 December 2004 07:25 PM
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quote:
The C# on string 9 helps a lot when playing swing stuff. I'm thinking of adding another lever change there to take advantage of it. I tend to play quite a bit of western swing material on my S10 and that dominant 7 (D) can really mess up a good 6th chord if it gets hit in the heat of battle.
A knee lever to lower it to C# is, of course, very useful, but the best swing position on the E9th is the one with the D string as the root. It gives you a 6th, a major 7th and a major 9th. If you have a split tuned on your 5th string, it also give you a 7th/9th. And of course there's the diminished with the F lever.
The C# is nice, but the D is necessary. |
Ernest Cawby
Member From: Lake City, Florida, USA
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posted 29 December 2004 07:44 PM
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How about using it as a 13th for fills sounds good to me and I use the 9th string a lot, Wayne better practice a lot before you come back, I am ready for you.
Wayne we had to move our Monday nite s to the Gospel barn to many people for my living room now. Mon nite we had 3 steels, keyboard, two lead guitars, 2 bass players, 4 singers.
WAYNE Carol came down from Valdosta, and Ken Fox from Ray City Ga. Bill Witfield from Gainsville, and Paul from Gainsville, Allen Mc Cormick from Lee Fl. We had a ball.
4 Singers taking turns, and a girl vocalist, a very real bandstand backup practice.ernie |
Dave Grafe
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 30 December 2004 04:23 PM
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Thanks, Bobby, I'll check it out...don't know how I ever went so long without that "necessary" note, just plain luck I guess....Thanks for the bonus CD, too, nice sounds. best --dg |
Dave Grafe
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 30 December 2004 05:52 PM
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quote:
the best swing position on the E9th is the one with the D string as the root. It gives you a 6th, a major 7th and a major 9th. If you have a split tuned on your 5th string, it also give you a 7th/9th. And of course there's the diminished with the F lever
Okay, I went down to the basement and checked out the D as the root with 3 & 6 raised. Holy Cow, now I gotta start all over from scratch on this thing! Just when I thought I was gettin' good enough for folks to listen to without throwing stuff, too.I don't have that split per se, but 5 & 10 stay in tune real good on my old Pro I when I half-pedal them. Boy, I gotta lot of work to do now...thanks a lot b0b... Really, thanks, this is huge -- dg |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 31 December 2004 12:32 AM
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Tony...I'm not really doing anything too mysterious with the D string. Lately for some reason the bottom 5 strings of the E9 tuning, without any pedals or knee levers, have become a more natural starting point for me when I'm thinking about playing single note solo's and melodies. I just found that I've been able to learn the tuning much better by looking at it from that side of the tuning. Very similar to the way I look at single note lines on C6....i.e. memorizing all the open intervals on all the adjacent strings.
Being that the D, E, F#, and G# are all whole steps, I've found it's kind've easy to navigate quickly around them. For instance, those tricky but impressive little steel guitar triplets and trills are all over that zone. |
Joe Miraglia
Member From: Panama, New York USA
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posted 31 December 2004 09:42 AM
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Another use for that dang D-9th string--using strings 6 thru 10 with A & B pedals, this gives you the basic voicing of the first five strings of the Alkire E-harp. The strings are tuned E,C#,B,A,G#. One grip giving you E major and the other grip giving you A major, using strings 1,3,5 and 1,2,4 giving you these chords. On the E9th strings 6 thru 10 are tuned A,F#,E,D,C# (using AandB pedal)giving you a D major-A major trill. This will give you a different approach on the E9th tuning using the D string. The two major string grips are 6,8,10 and 6,7,9. Joe |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 31 December 2004 01:16 PM
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quote:
Really, thanks, this is huge -- dg
You just made my day, Dave. Glad to have helped. |
Hans Holzherr
Member From: Ostermundigen, Switzerland
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posted 31 December 2004 05:08 PM
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Bobby, do you tune your 9th string D to make a perfect fifth with the 6th string, B pedal down? For chords with the D as root, do you use a compensator on the 7th string? If so, on what pedal/lever is it?Hans[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 31 December 2004 at 05:09 PM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 31 December 2004 07:22 PM
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I wouldn't say it's a "perfect" 5th, but it's close. the important thing is that the F# is tuned flat of the D and A to make a nice sounding chord.
I tune my F# flat and raise it to match the B on a compensator. The compensator pull is on the lever that lowers my E's to D#.
Most people tune the F# to the B and use a compensator to lower it in the A or B pedal. Either way works, as far as I'm concerned. Heck, with enough cabinet drop, you don't even need the compensator. 
[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 31 December 2004 at 07:26 PM.] |
Fred Glave
Member From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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posted 01 January 2005 12:53 PM
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I was struggling with that D# 9th string for awhile until all you guys gave me the straight story. I have Right knee left lever to lower the 9th 1/2 to D and then 1 whole step to C#. Right knee right raises it 1/2 step to E. It was what was missing from my progress in learning. Without both of those levers, the D# for me would be hardly ever used, but still needed. Sort of. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 01 January 2005 07:51 PM
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Dave-I'm glad that Bobby could give you some tuning advice. That's what this Forum has been all about.When I was still playing, I also used the D ninth string, as a basis for my D6 ,Dmaj7, etc. as Bobby suggested. It really expands the possibilities of the E9 tuning....al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 01 January 2005 at 07:52 PM.]
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 01 January 2005 07:54 PM
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Fred, it sounds like you're talking about the 2nd string. That's the one that's tuned to D#. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 01 January 2005 08:30 PM
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Something I find useful with the 9th string is that there is a tri tone with the 6th string. So if you play a C7 chord on the 2nd fret with the 9th and 6th strings and add the 5th string you have a C7b9 chord without the root. If you add the A pedal raise to the 5th string you have that C7 b10 or "Foxy lady" chord.Tri tones are big fun. Try playing a C blues with the one chord on 9 and 6, 2nd fret. Four chord down to the 1st fret and five chord up to the 3rd fret. Then do the same pattern starting on the 8th fret. Find the tri tones inside of any C7 chord and move them around in the same half step type way to get a one, four five progression and the E9 neck gets pretty interesting looking. ------------------
Bob
intonation help
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Michael Barone
Member From: Downingtown, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 02 January 2005 09:55 AM
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Speaking of a tri-tone, I set up my LKR to lower string 6, G# to F#, and string 9, D to C#. (Sho-Bud Pro 1) When I press the B pedal, with LKR, I get a G natural on string 6, which gives me a moving tri-tone (with string 9). I like how it morphs from a jazz E7 (or E13) to an A9 in the same fret. (grip 9,6,5,4)I have also found that my LKR is more useful for riffs in B6 mode, altering strings 6 & 9. However, some players may say that this is not good use of a lever. ------------------
Mike Barone
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Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 02 January 2005 11:15 AM
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Mike...whatever works for you IS good! |
John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 02 January 2005 12:29 PM
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I find the ninth string indispensable when you're looking beyond pure triads, and looking for some colour on E9.
Dave Grafe, this is for you:
Misty - for E9 Bb7b9 EbMaj7 Bbm9 Eb7b9 Ab
1---------|---------|-------------------------------|-------|
2---------|---------|-------------------------------|-------|
3---------|---------|-------------------------------|-------|
4---------|---------|-------------------------------|-------|
5--9a~~6a-|-1a------|-----11a-11a~11--11a~11--6a----|-------|
6--9~~~6--|-1b----4-|-4b--11b-11b-----11~~11-----6b-|-------|
7---------|-1---4---|-4---11--11------11------------|-6-----|
8--9r~~6r-|---------|---------------------11r-6-----|-------|
9--9~~~6--|-1-------|-----11--11------11--11--------|-6---8-|
10--------|---------|-4a----------------------------|---9---| Abm7 Db7 EbMaj7 Cm7 Fm7 Bb7b9
1------------------|-1~~1r--------------|-------------------
2------------------|--------------------|-------------------
3------------------|-------1------------|-------------------
4------------------|--------------------|--4----------------
5----9a-9a~9--9a-9-|-1a----------6~~6a--|--4a-----------6---
6----9b-9b----9----|-1b------6b---------|-----4--6~~6b--6---
7----9--9-----9----|-1-------6----------|-------------------
8------------------|--------------------|--------6r-----6r--
9--9-9--9-----9----|-1------------------|--------6------6---
10-----------------|---------6a---------|------------------- Gm7b5 C7b9 Fm9 Bb7b9
1-----------------------
2-----------------------
3-----------------------
4-----------------------
5--8~~~~~~8-----6a--6a--
6-----8b~~8-----6b--6---
7---------------6-------
8--8r~~~~~8r--------6r--
9---------8-----6---6---
10----------------------
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Dave Grafe
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 02 January 2005 03:53 PM
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Thanks John, I'll give it a good working over.Best -- dg |
Dave Grafe
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 02 January 2005 10:53 PM
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Thanks, John, it'll give me a good working over....Excellent! dg |
Michael Dene
Member From: Gippsland,Vic, Australia
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posted 02 January 2005 11:11 PM
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John,that's really neat. thanks. Michael[This message was edited by Michael Dene on 02 January 2005 at 11:11 PM.] |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 03 January 2005 04:50 AM
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Here's a neat sounding thing for the 9th string as the root. Think about the tunes, Walk Right Back by the Everly Bros. or Anne Murray, or the tune, Drinkin' Champagne by George Strait and you'll hear the lick. Try the key of A but go to the 7th fret instead of the 5th and use your D string as the root with the B pedal added. Play strings 5, 6, & 9 and pedal in and out with the A pedal and you'll hear the sound I'm talking about...JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
Jeff Evans
Member From: Fort Worth (not that other place 30 miles east)
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posted 04 January 2005 06:21 PM
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Never have I seen finer nail driving with a monkey wrench, John.Are you wearing picks on every digit now? Any tips on simultaneously striking five non-adjacent strings? Any thoughts on tuning these chords on antiquated, compensatorless instruments? |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 04 January 2005 08:43 PM
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Yeah, John, how to you play that 5 note Ebmaj7?
Jeff, on guitars without a compensator pull on the F#, I always try to tune the F# so that I get the same rate of beats on two positions:
1) tune F# to B with your E strings lowered
2) tune F# to C# with pedals down (AB)
I don't even bother to compensate the high F#. The 7th string is the only one where I hear a problem.
Also, cabinet drop actually helps with the F# "problem", and older guitars tend to have more cabinet drop than today's models.
Compensator pulls, especially on the F# string, have been around since I started playing (30 years ago). It's not a new idea at all. Still, the compromised tuning I describe above works pretty well.
If you're using an electronic tuner and tuning your E's to the 0 mark with pedals down, tune the D to the same value as the E (pedals up), then tune the F# to 0. That will get you in the ball park.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 04 January 2005 08:48 PM
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I need to add YMMV - your milage may vary. If you're trying to get your guitar perfectly in tune, ignore everything I say. My guitar is never perfectly in tune. I can play it in tune sometimes, though.
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John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 05 January 2005 01:53 PM
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I have been wearing 3 finger picks a bit lately, for tunes like that, but you could also leave a note out. Which one, is up to you.
As far as the Eb chord at the first fret, (and some others) I find myself sounding the chord underneath (or arpeggiating it) and adding the melody note on top just after it.
The tab I wrote to demonstrate b0b's suggestion about Maj7 and Maj9 chords rooted on the 9th string, as well as his reference to "diminished" voicings (which is this case, in my world, are 7b9 chords)
As far as tuning/intonation goes, it might also demonstrate why, in my opinion, ET is the only solution, and why JI is a never ending battle of relativity against roots. Everything's fine until you change your root position.
I know many disagree, but... FWIW. I'm glad you guys tried the tab though. Thanks.
-John |
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