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Charlie, the ultra-low voicing of A-C#-E will sound like mud. The best chord voicings use wider intervals in the lower registers. That's why the P8 pedal of the C6th gives you A-E-A-C#-E (no low C#).

Put the F# strings back in. Trust us on this one.

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If I really need low notes below that low E, I use a pedal to yank it way down.

[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 12 December 2005 at 04:22 PM.]

As a sub-intermediate player, if I had an S12, I would try the Extended E9 first, at least for a period of time where I can decide if I can do without the "D" string (string 8 on E9), and get it on a lever.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure there will be loads more below.

Good Luck with your S12 Charlie!

I agree with bOb´s description of those real low strings as muddy sounding.

The 10th string on the C6th neck and the 12th string on a universal are real "be your own bass player" stuff. Now, think about it. If you had a real bass player ¿would you want him to play chords?

    LKL  LKR   P0  P1  P2  P3
F#           
D#
G#             F#      A
E   D#   F#             
B                  C#      C#
G#             F#      A   A
F#           
E   D#   F#                D#
B                  C#            
G#                     A              
E        
A 

This is an attempt to reconcile an S12 with Ed Packard's PST series, where P3 (PX) is the gateway to the 13th series. This is conceptually a Day setup, which I find to be more ergonomic for me. The corresponding L< lower and L> raise on E makes for more spatially related moves, to be brief.
With seven pedals to play with, PO is still there, as it makes an easy V chord (L< + PO), and resolves I by moving ii out of suspension to iii. I think it's a brilliant add-on.

And gives me a chance to ask: Why the E->F raise? On a standard copedent, A+LKL and C+LKR both produce VImaj. There may be other good reasons for it, but having E->F# gives an additional IImin. (L> + B+C).

That may explain the proposed missing middle F#, but I'm nonetheless putting that aside for now. As Phred says:

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Standardization of setups, tunings, pedals, and levers is wishful thinking in the current Pedal Steel Guitar world.

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I also wish strings were numbered lo to hi.
Nonetheless, it may be best to remain conversant with the SG world, particularly with respect to Ed's 13th series, and bearing in mind the experience of others.
But someday....

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 13 December 2005 at 06:14 AM.]

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www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar

Also, as I've pointed out at least once, you will tie your ankle in a knot trying to use the B pedal with LKL.

Do you not care about learning from others? If not, COOL. If so, I'd advise more careful consideration of starting off with a well established standard setup. You're really not going to know what to eliminate if you don't really know what it's for. Eh?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

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Do you not care about learning from others?

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I don't see how one can keep from learning on the backs of others. Bach discovered every chord in its basics, and you can't play jazz without them. As I said on Al Terhune's thread, a man would be a fool to ignore several hunderd years of combined experience. But I must bear in mind that I see things spatially--chord changes in space, with a definite lo/hi correspondence of moves.
I am grateful for you advice and that of others. I'm at the 'I'm not worthy' stage, and beholdened to Bobby for not starting this thread in humor!

But I must add--yes, I realize philosophy bores many people, and I try to minimize it--that PSG is currently at a plateau in its development, and can cite similar opinions of others. So I'll always have an eye toward change, particularly in adapting to the 13th series. But I may have to have a 14-stringer to do that. Later. Maybe as soon as March when I check out Ed's PST Sierra. (It's a keyless 25" scale, and I think that is a major improvement in hardward. His complete view of the 13th series is amazing in its scope.) And The Beast remains to me as the pinnacle of psg development. 'The steel guitar is much under-utilized.'-- my bro Dan Dryden, Philip Glass' sound man in NYC.
But first, I'll adapt to a proper S12. If you can make such music from it, how can I go wrong?
By the way, I think you should publish your setup in b0b's column of copdedants.
Think I'll do a search.
Thanks, as always.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 13 December 2005 at 07:28 AM.]

I've checked out Larry's site; he does a good job of tracing the development of E9 and universal.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 13 December 2005 at 07:50 AM.]

I understand your desire to keep the knees going left to flat and right to sharp. But the F and E-lower lever get used more for chords than for single note changes like you are thinking. For chord work, they should be wherever they work good with other levers and pedals. On uni, I want the E-lower lever (which gives the B6 configuration) on my volume pedal leg. That leg already has limited lever and pedal use because of the volume pedal. Having that leg pinned down holding the E-lower lever is tolerable. Having my left leg pinned that way is intolerable. If you can get all the chords you need, the single notes for scales and melodies will automatically be there, because they are all a part of one or more chords.

I agree with those above about the lack of usefulness of the low strings for lead work, especially for country. But I use those low strings on my uni a lot for rhythm work and power chords in rock, blues and jazz. And surprisingly, on the few classical pieces I am working on, I use them extensively for low harmony and even for low melody variations. The low harmony strings seem especially essential for minor chords and keys. This leads me to a big problem I would have with your above copedent, the lack of the low C# on the A pedal. That is the low root of the principle minor position on E9, the A pedal down position. This has become my favorite position on uni for minor blues and pentatonic jazz. It is difficult to appreciate on paper, but this position, including the F# on string 7 and a vertical lever raising 7 and 1 to G, gives over two octaves of pentatonic scale notes. I live in that box for whole songs. Discovering this box is one reason I moved quickly from extended E9 to uni (discovering B6 was the other reason).

Here's what is keeping me busy learning these days:

       LKL  LKV  LKR   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   RKL   RKR
	F  AB7th       A   B   C  BW   5   6   7    EL    D
1  F#       G,G#
2  D#                                               C#   D,C#
3  G#                      A
4  E    F                      F#          E        Eb
5  B                   C#      C#              C#
6  G#                      A                   Bb
7  F#       G,G#                        F
8  E    F         D            F#          D        Eb
9  B                   C#           C                    [Bb]
10 G#                      A
11 E    F  (F#,G)                   D#  F                (F#)
12 B                   C#           G#  C#

I have never asked b0b to list my tunings on his Tunings Page. But he is welcome to it if he wishes.

I have my "Lean and Mean" S10, "the Real Universal" S12 and a few others 13, 14 stringers, on my Website that might give a few ideas on different pulls.

On E9/B6,Dropping that E do D for E7, loses the E, Raising the B to a D on the E9/B6 tuning loses the B(the strong 5th).

Carl Dixon,( Thanks your for all your great posts,) raised BOth the (9th St)B to a D and the (10th st)G# to a B, and got his 5th back. This way you can do a strum and play like the sacred tuning does too. For different rhythm effects.

Larry Bell's will do the job for most everyone on a S12. Check out his Website...al

Merry Christmas.

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 13 December 2005 at 08:48 AM.]

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What's the standard? Well, for E9th the standard is the 3+3 that I describe on this page. Beyond that there is no real consensus. It's personal preference. We almost came to agreement about F# to G as the 4th lever back in the 80's, but then someone started raising F# to G# on a lot of hit records and all hell broke loose.

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I fear I've opened up a can of worms, but this can has been opened many times.
No wonder the beginner gets confused by which 'standard' to follow! The more I learn, the less I know. You may not realize it, but with all the contributions, I'm being driven back to find my own way.
"Give up learning; it will be better for all of us." --Lao Tzu. (Of course, there was nothing more complex than the p'ai peh in those days.)

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There seems to be a disdain for the Day setup, which without question is more ergonomic when the corresponding F raise and lower are correctly assigned.

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Emmons (E) to Day (D) player ratios vary by region. In some areas of the country the split (all puns intended) reaches 50/50. Overall, the split appears to be greater than 90/10.

The main reason most manufacturers make Emmons steups as a defacto standard is because there are more Emmons setup players.

We just build 'em with the setup you guys specify. Note, it makes almost no difference to a beginner. As long as you have the necessary functions in a somewhat sensible location, the setup (E or D) makes no difference.

[This message was edited by John Fabian on 13 December 2005 at 11:01 AM.]

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

There's nothing wrong with experimenting - that's how we got where we are. But reinventing the wheel is unnecessary and a waste of your time. I think most of us would advise anyone starting out to get a very standard setup for 3&4 on E9 and live with it for a year or so - and learn to use all of it (also nothing wrong with trying a standard S10 C6, D10 or S12 uni). Get a 5th lever and/or extra pedal to experiment with, but leave the string tuning as it is. It may seem conformist at first; but remember, you are then standing on the shoulders of the best who ever played the instrument, and the thousands of hours of experimentation they did over decades. You will also be able to sit down to most pedal steels (at shops and shows and other steelers' homes) and be able to get the basics, and will be able to use most of the tab that is out there. Once you have the standard under your belt for awhile, you will be in a much better position to consider what personal changes might improve it for the kind of stuff you want to play. For the first few years, practice will get you way more notes than copedent changes.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 December 2005 at 03:52 PM.]

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There seems to be a disdain for the Day setup, which without question is more ergonomic when the corresponding F raise and lower are correctly assigned.

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Where in the heck do you think you have a Day setup? You may have the E to D# lever on lkl, but other than that, there is no resemblance to a Day setup at all (I have been playing Day for 30 years or so). Your A & B pedals are still set up as Emmons. The E to F# lever you have on LKR is not a good substitute for the E to F lever (or the C pedal for that matter). Even with a half stop, you are going to find it difficult to hit that F on fast runs.

I'm glad to see you listened about the F# strings as they are very important to this tuning.

I'm not sure what kind of music you plan to play, but for country, I find this to be a very disfunctional tuning. You may be playing something different that this tuning may be appropriate for, who knows.

As far as experimentation goes, more power to anyone who dares to experiment and challenge the boundaries to better the instrument, as long as that is their intent. I've known players who want to have different (meaning totally non-standard and sometimes downright wierd) just so they can say they are different from the rest. These players are often hurt by these decisions.

but, I will say, seeing as it seems you have a spare guitar now to try this tuning out, it will be interesting to hear what conclusions you come to. Good luck to you.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

quote:

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I find this to be a very disfunctional tuning.

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It's really very similar to my open tuning. I wouldn't mix the G#'s on the top with the A's on the bottom, but that's just me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 December 2005 at 08:33 AM.]

Re "experimenters"...think Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Bill Stafford, Chalker, Tharpe, J Byrd, Alvino Rey, Eddie Alkire, Leavit(sp?), and a lot of "unheard ofs".

One chap that you might have heard of that experimented was Hal Rugg. He liked his C#s among other things like Day setup re AB and associated levers. Even at the end He was trying to "improve" his setup for functionality for the type of music he wanted to play.

Just before he really got bad off, he came up to Show Low for the purpose of working on setup changes that would meet his preferences. We spent the day on my computer using a program that I have developed for such purposes (where the 13th series structure came from).

Playing is NOT the ONLY way to get pleasure from the PSG (and not annoy the neighbors).

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Thus the conceptual Day setup is revealed, as the E->A change is completed by L> as P2+P3 are rocked down.

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator
My Blog

[This message was edited by b0b on 14 December 2005 at 04:45 PM.]

A fundamental concept of E9 is to get I, IV and the relative minor at a single fret, and without moving your foot off the home pedals. II, V and other chords are only a couple frets away, and still without moving your foot. The extra scale notes on strings 1, 2 and 7, plus rocking your foot (still not moving it from the home pedals) give you the entire scale, major or minor, at a single fret. Other strings or levers give you the all important minor 7th, and perhaps other chromatic notes. These extra levers can be hit with your knees without looking (this is why extra knee levers were added to E9, but not more pedals). So you almost get the entire chromatic scale at a single fret, without moving your foot from the home pedals. This takes care of all Western music – country, pop, rock, folk, classical, and even a lot of blues and jazz. It is very difficult to move your foot around accurately on pedals without looking. You can manage okay for one pedal on each side of the home pedals, thus the C pedal and the 0 pedal. But being able to get so much at a single fret and with the home pedals accounts for the vast popularity of the E9 copedent for pedal steel. The brilliance of the uni is that it kept all of that, and added more, with the extra low strings and the whole B6 mode. You really don’t want to mess with the core of E9. Taking anything away from the strings and home pedals of standard E9 and adding them back on some distant pedals that cannot be hit accurately without looking, and that cannot work with the home pedals is a big, big mistake. For example, the main use of adding a G on a lever is to give the dominant 7th for the V chord with the A and B pedals down. You can’t get that with G on another pedal, because your foot is already holding down the home pedals. Likewise, the F# on string 7 gives the 6th with the home pedals down. Taking that string away and adding it on a pedal does not work. There are other examples in your copedent.

Although pedal steel E9 came from Bud Isaac’s lap E9 tuning, it evolved drastically to become the quintessential pedal steel copedent we have today. It is a long way from any useful lap steel tunings, and is designed to work with the home pedals plus 4 or 5 knee levers. It is very difficult to imagine any better pedal steel copedent for Western music. Ask b0b about his diatonic tuning. Sure it had lots of notes and was very piano-like or harp-like; but he discovered he lost all the great chordal possibilities and moving harmonies of E9.

The C6 tuning is a different concept. It was the most popular and useful lap steel tuning prior to Bud Isaac’s invention of the moving harmony pedal steel. You can play tons of stuff on it with no pedals. People still use it with no pedals for Hawaiian, country, pop and jazz. By simply changing grips at a single fret you can get I6, IV9 and the relative minor. Many, many other chords are available within a few frets, or with simple slants. The whole genre of Western swing was created with the C6 lap steel sound. You don’t really need to use pedals and levers to play Western swing on the C6 neck of a D10, or in B6 mode of a uni. The pedals and levers that were first added to C6 were for licks and flourishes – they are not at all essential to 6th neck playing the way they are for E9. Much later, Emmons added additional levers that helped him play bebop. However, I’m not convinced jazz is easier to get on C6 with lots of levers than on E9 or uni with lots of levers. If you approach jazz from a pentatonic blues tradition rather than from a Western swing tradition, E9, or even better the uni, has tons of possibilities, likewise the Sacred Steelers’ E7 copedent.

My copedent, which is a typical modern uni, may look complicated on paper. But to play, I think it is simpler than yours. First of all, it is a basic E9, with the lower strings repeating the upper string pattern, except for the F# on string 7. It is very much like an 8 string slide guitar tuned to E major would be. Next, the lower changes simply apply the same changes to the lower octave that are on the upper one, so there is nothing new or complicated there. Pedals 4-7 are for the B6 mode. The E9 mode still has only the A,B and C pedals, although I would like to add a 0 pedal. As for the levers, the E raise and lowers are standard, as is the 2nd string double lower. The lever for the D on the 8th string is necessary to make up for the missing D normally on string 9, and does double duty as pedal 6 of standard 6th neck. The vertical lever is really the only lever I have to play around with. The G I have there is a very common E9 lever, for getting a 7th with the A and B pedals down (the minor 7th is a key part of the pentatonic blues/jazz scale, but is also an essential part of all Western music). The C# on the E-lower lever replaces the useless D# with a note of the minor scale to go with that minor chord on E9, and also gives the equivalent of a D on top in B6 mode, which is a very common C6 setup. So really, my uni copedent is no more complicated than standard E9 and C6. Of course, when you consider the two copedents merged into one big one, there is immense complication. But that can be totally ignored while learning standard E9 and C6 stuff.

A couple of years ago when I started playing again, I explored copedents on paper like you are doing, to try to decide on what to get on a new pedal steel (I only had a Maverick then). I knew I wanted more low strings, so I got an extended E9. But then when I tried a uni, I gave up on the weird copedents on paper. The uni had all the typical E9 stuff, and all the typical C6 stuff, plus all the completely new stuff that comes from combining the two on a single neck. I quickly realized there is no way I would come up with something better on my own any time soon. Maybe someday I’ll consider a 14 string, but for now I have my hands full with 12. Anything I could want to play is in this copedent, country to blues, but also Chopin to avant garde jazz. Any real limitations are my own technical skills and imagination.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 December 2005 at 01:27 AM.]

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Charlie, I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to do with your 12-string copedent.

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I don’t understand why you have changed the bottom strings from a standard extended E9 or uni.

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Actually, that would be "conceptual Emmons"....

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Likewise, the F# on string 7 gives the 6th with the home pedals down. Taking that string away and adding it on a pedal does not work.

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I still think that not having D and D# notes on the second string will push you into some wierd corners.

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Taking anything away from the strings and home pedals of standard E9 and adding them back on some distant pedals that cannot be hit accurately without looking, and that cannot work with the home pedals is a big, big mistake.

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I really appreciate all the help, but come on guys, this is pedal steel guitar! It's the most fascinating instrument ever developed; it's hooked more guys than I can imagine, and I'm just one. Tuning a string, setting a raise, or moving a bellcrank is a process, and in the process is revealed things that work and things that don't work. In the end, you have music that meets your imagination or doesn't, and you continue the process.

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Playing is NOT the ONLY way to get pleasure from the PSG (and not annoy the neighbors).

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boo-wah! boo-wah!

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But I agree, Bobby; Lloyd Green's copedant is a truly elegant solution.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 15 December 2005 at 05:16 AM.]

Do you want to be a Scale Runner?...Do you want to be a Lick Flipper?...would you perchance be a Chord Chaser? Your setup can be optimized for each of these approaches. It can also be a compromise to get some of each.

Do you like the idea of being forced to use lots of skip grips to get the basics, or to use them to get the exceptions (altered/added structures)? Are you going to be a three pick, or four pick player? Will you be satisfied with three or four strings at a time, or would you want the big sweeping chords? Do you want the traditional sounds (old country...Western Swing...etc), or do you hear something else in your mind? Do you expect to lean on TAB to learn things?

The answer to these questions will help to determine your setup.

On another aspect = the low strings: The "muddy bottom" syndrone can be solved easily in several ways; by pickup, and or by EQ.

Karlis A. addressed the problem via two six string pickups...it would be nice to hear how that worked out for him. I solve the problem with a single pickup with two windings (four leads). One winding is a "normal" one, and the second winding has 1/3 the turns of the normal one. These two windings can be used serial, parallel, in phase, or bucking. The bottom string can sound as Strat, Tele, Jazz, Cello as you want by selecting the appropriate hookup.

One of the reasons for the muddy bottom effect is that once the rack has been set for THE sound/tone, it is too much trouble to change it, and it is difficult to change on the fly so the sound is optimized for the upper strings and octaves at the expense of the lows. Enter the virtual rack. Many different and instantly alterable tonal structures may be created, stored, and accessed on the fly if the computer is located like a music stand in front of the PSG. Bye Bye Muddy Bottoms, and hello to a whole new area of PSG sounds.

1. Chord chaser (I should think that would be obvious by the amended chart, but I was trying to effect a compromise, to satisfy the criteria raised)(I know better now to attempt that feat)
2. Thumb and three fingers, sometimes four
3. I hear something else in my mind
4. Can't stand tablature
5. Music stand? what for?
6. Bottom strings: a bass guitar. I like to overdub.

So smoke on your pipe and put that in.
Simply can't wait to see what responses this gets. Really. zzzzzzzzzzz....

No we won't "chuck" you either.
On your colored copedent chart above,

I would have exchanged pedal 4; G#-G
for LKR; E-F#
And dropped the F# to F with the G#'s to G