thanks

My name is Sherman Willden and I live in Colorado Springs. I have a Carter S12 7x5 that I haven't learned to play yet but I am using the courses listed below I like the E9/B6 S12 for the closer finger grips. Tabbed strings 9 and 10 reside at the same place. In the B6th on my S12 pedal 4 is what pedal 8 is on C6th and I can bounce back and forth between pedals 5 and 4 for closer footwork.

With the Jeff Newman CD course I find holding the E to Eb lever in all the time tiresome. I have to go to E9th for awhile to let my leg rest. It seems that Joe Wright mixes in all the levers more than Jeff Newman and thus doesn't rely on the E - Eb lever as much. Joe Wright mixes it up more. My E to Eb lever is on my RKR.

- Jeff Newman
- - The Universal E9B6 Course Book 1 and Cd
- - E9B6 Universal Introductory Video
- Joe Wright
- - DVD #5 which includes the following related E9B6 videos
- - - - Video #9
- - - - Video #10
- - - - Video #5

Sherman L. Willden

[This message was edited by Sherman Willden on 06 February 2006 at 06:24 AM.]

Putting E to D -- string 8 only -- on a lever on the opposite knee from your E to D# will allow you to
* rest the other knee
* get the D usually on string 9 of 10 string E9 AND
* get the P6 function from C6 by letting off your E to D# lever while lowering 8 to D -- so 8 goes down and 4 returns to E giving you the identical change, 1/2 step lower, than the C6 Pedal 6 change.

I've been using this change ever since I started playing a U-12 in the mid 70's and IT WORKS. It also eliminates the need to use both feet on the pedals to get P5 + P7 combination (and other combinations as well).

It is a multi-purpose solution that works very well for me and others. It is not part of Jeff Newman or Joe Wright's setup, so that is probably one reason why few U-12 players use it. Their loss, in my book.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

I feel that a S-12 is much easier to understand the sixth tuning on since the sixth tuning key (B) is related to the ninth tuning (E), unlike C6 and E9. I've found that a lot of people have learned a lot of C6 without really thinking about what they are doing or analyzing the changes and chords. A C6 player I learned a lot from years ago had NO CLUE what chords he was playing but played like he knew what he was doing. In a manner of speaking, he did -- he knew what it was supposed to SOUND like, but he had no clue WHY it sounded that way and didn't really care to. I find that universal players who play a lot of sixth style have looked at the changes and realize that C6 (or B6) is JUST A POSITION OF E9 and E9 is JUST A POSITION OF C6 (B6). Many D-10 players don't explore the similarities -- only the differences.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Calvin, keep in mind, a few weeks back you started a thread about the availability of teaching materials ..and the lack thereof...

If you cross over to the the U12 you will learn that the amount of teaching materials available for the U12 is NOT in abundance..actually way less than that...

I play a U-12 Williams 8 x 5, and have not,
as yet, asked Bobbe, WHY?

I actually approach the U-12 more in a manner
of a combined tuning. I understand E9 more than I do C6, so I definitely lean towards an E9 style of playing. But I can mix it up.

I'd be curious to know what Bobbe's 10 anti-Uni reasons are. But then again, I'm happy enough with my U-12, and probably would rather NOT know.

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 06 February 2006 at 05:15 PM.]

I have been playing a universal the last year, and right now am playing a Zum U12 8+5 that I love. I find the universal approach easier to get my brain around, but maybe I'm just weird. For me, the strongest arguments against universal are:

1. The forced compromise of the "tampered" or nearly-just tuning between the E9 and B6 modes. I struggle with that, and still have trouble getting both modes to sound right. I play more E9, so I bias in that direction, but I still work on it.

2. The mechanics are more difficult on the universal, since there are more changes piled on many pedals and levers. This can make some of the pulls pretty stiff. A high-tech modern steel like the Zum (and I'm sure many others like Carter, MSA Millenium, Fessy, Mullen, etc.) helps this, I think.

But otherwise, I resonate with what David Doggett and Larry Bell said on this. I have trouble doing gigs with an S-10 now, since my bandmates expect me to whip out some blues/slide licks on the low strings, and the universal makes that easy.

quote:

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when i played the U-12 it felt like i had been playing it for years, no superises.

---

verses D-10, you need to read the latest

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

From my own experience....I started on an S-10 just as you. When I was trying to make the decision to go to S-12 or D-10, I did as you and tried out both.

The D-10 seemed very awkward to me, because I wasn't used to the C6 neck being there. I'm sure if I had started on a D-10, I would have never known any different, but I didn't, so it was a major hinderance for me....especially being a beginner, at the time. Learning a new tuning didn't appeal to me either so it had 2 strikes right off the bat.

The SU-12 was much more what I was used to, being a single neck. The extra 2 strings did require a little adjustment.....maybe a month or 2 at the most. The B6 was just an addition to the E9 and I now see it as one tuning. I honestly don't ever think of it as E9 or B6. It's just a steel guitar with way more options than I'll ever use! So, the SU-12 is the tuning that works best for me, mentally & physically.

If I had it to do again, the only thing I would do differently is start on a SU-12. That's just my opinion and this subject will be debated from now on........

I would suggest that you try both S-12 & D-10 and consider the physical as well as mental aspect of playing each. Take your time and consider all the advice you get from both sides.

Ultimatly, I believe that both tunings are capable of far more than we can physically get out of them. This puts the limiting factor on ourselves and not the instrument.

My last opinion on this is that I don't think there's a wrong answer on which is the best. That's a personal choice that you have to make and when you decide which one fits you best, mentally & physically, then you will have made the right decision.

Good Luck!!

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MSA Millennium S-12U
Walker Stereo Steel
Hilton Pedal

quote:

---

If you want the definitive word on universal verses D-10, you need to read the latest epistle from Bobbe Seymour!
.

---

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Zum U-12 w/True Tone pickup thru a Nashville 112
Strats thru a VHT Super 30
http://community.webshots.com/album/176544894AuXSmi
jonchristopherdavis.com

www.lonestarattitude.net

Granted, there are many top players who choose a double neck instrument. That choice has history on its side, as well as a lot of inertia because of the new top dogs learning from the old top dogs and the D-10 is the thing. Also, if you really need a half dozen knee levers on each tuning, you're probably better off with a double neck. But most players -- even many top players -- are satisfied with five or six levers which fit very well on a single neck.

BUT, it is very denigrating to players like Maurice Anderson, Joe Wright, and Jeff Newman (and a few others) to assume that you're a lightweight who can't play in tune if you play a single tuning. It just ain't so, no matter what a vendor might want to tell you.

This is a personal decision and everyone has different needs. Buying the same make and model golf clubs will not make you play like Jack Nicklaus and using a different make and model will not prevent you from playing as well. Use what works for YOU. Take the time to find out what that is. Don't rely on the recommendation of ANYONE.

I have actually played many gigs on a D-10. I've also played MANY, MANY, MANY on a U-12. I wonder how many of the most vocal critics of a U-12 have ever played one for more than an hour or two.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 08 February 2006 at 06:20 AM.]

But I wonder how many of those that are seeking that extra music down there under the B string have actually concquered the music available above the B string ?

Count me in the catagory of

NOT

Although a 12 has crossed my mind..but not as a replacement but AN ADDITION to...

just causin' trouble...

oh, and Mark, the reason I'm not on a U12 is..

well... I don't want to be...I'm still tryin' to figure out what those other 9 strings are for

1. Feel = if it does not feel good to you, you won't play your best...have the pedals and levers "fitted" to your body.

2. Sound = some folk have a more critical hearing system; some are bothered by things that I can't hear. Then there is the issue of do I want the Chalker sound, the Green sound or? Forget tracking the Emmons (the man) sound as he uses them all plus some.

3. Licks = the last one to come out of Nashville/Bakersfield, and sometimes Austin/LA. P3 on E9 was off a lot of lists until JH played Look At Us.

D10 vs. Uni of some sort is a matter of what fits you best; aside from the tendency to praise whatever you have (brand/type et al) just because that is what you have, it is financially draining to search for what fits you best musically...usually a moving target.

There are lots of ways to configure a Uni...D10 is pretty much fixed plus or minus a pedal or lever or two.

A Uni can be set up to be played as either the E9 or B6 via the LOCK method. Another Lock can be added to Give the B,D string sequence on the middle strings if that does it for you.

The top strings can be arranged in the C6 with top 2/9 order if that does it for you, and give you an added higher pitch string than C6 has (a tension and breakage issue).

Bill Stafford uses the E9/B6 LOCK approach. The M Anderson followers tend to the Bb6/Eb9 arrangement (why not...most non Nashvilleze music is in flats. Al Vescovo uses a 14 string C6 "Uni" setup...he is Big Band/swing/jazz and Show tunes oriented (fresh air here).

I add in the full 13 series musical structure into my Uni at the expense of adding three pedals...chord contest anyone?.

The easy out for the S10, D10, Uni type is probably to pick the sound that you like, by the player(s) that you like, see what they are using, and start there. Get new gear if possible to avoid inheriting someone elses problems...second choice would be from a reputable knowledgeable rebuilder/shop.

The Uni can be used with or without the LOCK approach; if you have long legs like Joe Wright you can reach any of up to 10 pedals hence can have changes available that are not in the cards for us shorter legged mortals.

I personally go for a 14 string Uni based upon an E9/B6 concept (as opposed to a B6/E9 or similar concept). It is a longer neck (added frets) and tuned to C69, top string sequence like C6 with the 2/9 on top, second string being an A.

The reasoning is that with a 14 string unit, I can use it as a 12 string, a 10 string, etc. when I get the urge to tinker. It is easy to change the undercarriage setup on the Uni I have (some are not). The Uni has a larger frequency spectrum than the D10 necks combined....don't need it, then don't use it...you want it, you got it...can't play what you don't have.

If you like plain vanilla, get an S10...French vanilla, get a D10...like Ben and Jerry's tasty concoctions, go Uni of some sort.

If I was just starting out. I too would seriously consider a U-12 (or 14).

And to criticize any player for their choice of instrument is apalling.

Edited 'cuz I had a cortizone shot in my soine this morning and am flying high on Vicodin. Hard to type correctly.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 08 February 2006 at 01:38 PM.]

Here is the difference

  Uni E9/B6    Ext E9
1     F#         F#
2     D#         D#
3     G#         G#
4     E          E
5     B          B
6     G#         G#
7     F#         F#
8     E          E
9     B          D
10    G#         B
11    E          G#
12    B          E