But now a puzzle that hadn't come up in discussions with my parts suppliers. I'm sort of surprised, since they knew what copedent was being used.

Situation: the first stringis lowered from D3 to D by pedal 6....but also now needs to lower from D# to C# via the LKL.

One the 4th string, pedal one raises from F# to G#; The RKL is supposed to raise from F# to A.

This is Sneaky's setup for the knees. I kno some people have done it - but I don't know how to make it work. Knee lever stops wouldn't work, since in each case the knee makes the larger change.

Is there some simple method of stopping the pedal cable assembly at a certain point that doesn't affect the knee lever assembly?

I'm puzzling over this one. I *know* there's a way to do it, I just don't have the knowledge.

A couple ideas using loops on both the raise and lower fingers have come up, but I wonder if there are any other ideas? The raise/lower loop combination would only work if one of the loops was free - but on each pedal in question, each loop is used on a different string, so it looks like that type of system won't work.

The actual copedent is on the forum - it's Sneaky's with the 9th string changes ommitted.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 March 2006 at 06:31 AM.]

My guitar already has been drillied in various places so I'm not concerned about modifying the body.

Dave

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 15 March 2006 at 08:52 AM.]

How about setting the knee for the full step lower and pedal 2 for the 1/2 step raise. Then connect pedal 6 to the raise and the lower and it should lower it a whole step and bring it back a 1/2 step to D on pedal 6.
It is the same concept when you pedal with two feet.

Russ

[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 15 March 2006 at 01:36 PM.]

BUT

Here's the workaround to allow double flattening or sharpening on a "1000"
NOT cables on the knee lever just rods with loops and the old Sho-Bud halfstop barrell.

and

Baz

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quote:

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Steel players do it without fretting

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Russ - I really want to keep the changes where they are rather than reverse the pedals/knees. Hopefully.

Steve's thought about a pedal stop is what I was thinking (it must be what Basil's thing is as well). I do have some short cylinders with holes thru the diameter that a cable could run through, and a screw on top to set them - If I put those on the pedal cables and set them where they smack into some sort of bracket/stop at a predetermined (but adjustable) point, maybe that would work? Is that the general idea of the Shobud thing?

Another thought is setting the knee change, and then adjusting the pedal's pull using a combination of the turnbuckle and rod adjustments. I *might* be able to limit the pull there by loosening things at the turnbuckle and resetting the pedal height via the rod, which wouldn't affect the knee lever pull at all. I seem to recall reading a note on that method somewhere...and it would certainly be the simplest solution.

Comments? Remember this is a vintage mechanism and pull system, and no matter what it's not going to be as deadly accurate as modern high-tech steels (I get a kick out of the tuning debates - sheesh, we Fender guys are happy to see a tuner needle point somewhat straight up at all...).

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 March 2006 at 04:30 PM.]

Jim,

I think you missed my point. On string 4 set the RKL to raise a step and a 1/2 or (+++)F# to A. Set pedal 5 to lower a 1/2 step (-)F# to F. Now hook pedal 1 on the raise and the lower. Pedal 1 will be raised a step and a 1/2 (+++)F# to A but the lower will be dropping a 1/2 step (-)A to G# so what you get is a full step raise (++) F# to G#.

My other example was for string 1, one raise and two lowers.

Test this by raising F# to G# on string 4 with pedal 1 then push pedal 5 down while holding pedal 1 down. It should lower the raise by the 1/2 step to G.

I believe it's on the forum some place.
All the best,
Russ

[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 15 March 2006 at 08:03 PM.]

You're probably right. I have no KL's on my guitar and pedal 1 is very important. Your sugesstion of asking Anita would be a good one or Tommy Spurlock as he has the same setup.

quote:

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and no matter what it's not going to be as deadly accurate as modern high-tech steels

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Whilst that may be correct with regard to the very latest guitars , I find that that's not an issue if implemented like I've done it..

1. The fender most definitely does NOT suffer from 'Cabinet drop'

2. Whether there is little or a lot of slack in the cables the way the mechanism works takes cable slack out of the equation.

ebb - I apologize for my ignorance, but this one: "the rkr pedal in sneaky's tuning is the equivalent of the pete drake version of the a pedal f lever inversion http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007456.html and is available with the 8th pedal and a modified grip"...

....completely lost me. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean or how that thread applies to what I'm doing - it's not "who invented what" I'm worried about, it's getting the darned changes to operate. It HAS been done, so there has to be a way to do it. I thought I was getting a complete setup with the knee levers based on info I supplied, but found out that's not the case.

Russ - did your example mean you have to also push the #5 pedal to get the change? I'm still not clear on it.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 March 2006 at 09:25 PM.]

quote:

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Donny - the problem is, though, that the knee lever has to pull *farther* than the pedal....so that idea doesn't work.

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I'm sure I'm not making myself clear. Here is all I was thinking on string 4:

RK Raise: +++
P5 Lower: -

ebb - thanks for trying, really, but you still lost me. I'm not sure what your trying to tell us.

Donny - That's correct - more pull on the knees. We're on the same track...with a stop on the pedal cable it seems like it should be simple. I just need to figure out how to make one with my limited fabrication skills (like - none. Need to find off-the-shelf-stuff and adapt it like I did with the lever stops).

That seems like the most solid and simplest system. Easier than the adding/subtracting of multiple raise/lower pulls (and I'm math phobic!!), less strain, and very similar visually to the knee levers, keeping it somewhat decent in appearance. Some parts I have, the rest are coming in I think. I can try the "L" bracket stop first since it's worked for other people, but if it seems not strong enough I'll have to find something heavier - what, I don't know.

Just need to get the pedal stops worked out and it's ready except for a few cosmetic things.

Basil - you would be correct - Fender didn't make them with two pickups.

Some tuning difficulties I haven't figured out - the changer fingers are randomly distributed under the guitar now, and when one pedal pulls two strings OR one string is pulled by two pedals I'm having a heck of a time getting them both in tune. Back and forth dozens of times, and they'll only get close - each time I set one string the other pull goes out of adjustmen.

I've got to be doing something wrong, but it's all following the Fender manual. Must be some unwritten trick to it that's driving me nuts.

quote:

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each time I set one string the other pull goes out of adjustmen.

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Either you have the cables over-tightened (not enough slack, and they're activating when you're not pressing a pedal), or whatever you're using as a "stop" is moving. If you're using the floor as a stop for the pedals, and the guitar moves any at all (like the rubber leg-tips compressing), you'll never get it "right". With all it's shortcomings, the Fender changer is one of the most simple, accurate, and stable ever invented.

What I'm not sure of...and what isn't defined anywhere...is how the changer screws should be set at the *start* of the whole hookup process. I have nothing binding, smooth as silk...but tune one pull and the other goes out. Then retune the string again, and both are out. I keep going until I run out of turns on the screw - and the turnbuckles are set just at the very edge of tautness - no real tension at all. Really baffling. And the fingers for the loops are scattered all over, while the ones on my 1000 are all neatly in a row.

When I did a new setup on my 8 pedal Fender it was a bit difficult to get right. I finally lubed the parts and got it to work right. It took a while though.

quote:

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And the fingers for the loops are scattered all over, while the ones on my 1000 are all neatly in a row.

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As Basil said, the fingers must be all in a row (solidly against the stop-plate) when at rest. Everything starts there! It could be that your lowering springs are too weak, or they've been stretched, and that would also cause the situation you have described. Another forumite had this photo on posted, and your changer should look exactly like the one at the top of the picture!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 March 2006 at 08:41 PM.]

Taken 2 minutes ago - you can see my dilemma. BTW, the angle is disconcerting, but there's plenty of clearance between the knee lever shaft and the cables/loops.

The lowering springs are very tight. In fact, I was planning on installing lighter ones to make the lowers a bit quicker.

So - suggestions? How do I line them up and tune things without them ending up all catywhumpus again?

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 20 March 2006 at 08:16 PM.]

SLACK OFF THEM CABLES!!!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 March 2006 at 08:44 PM.]

Lining up those fingers is something sorta glossed over in the old Fender manual - I'm having to fake it as I go...thanks for the help.

Edited - OK, everything is working except the 8th string lower on pedal 1. Just can't get enough pull before it hits the floor, and if I have that one right the 4th string pulls sharp. So I'll live without the 8th string pull for a couple days while I make real stops. I have a couple short cross-shafts with levers mounted - so I'm planning on clipping the single cables for pedals 1 and 6 before the small pulley, and adding a small turnbuckle on each side of the levers. Then use stops similar to the ones for the knee levers (but probably a little heavier) and that should work to tune the pedal pulls where they need to be. I think....

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 20 March 2006 at 10:41 PM.]

thinking about it, it seems like th stops need to go *after* the small pullies so they only affect one string, not both. Means I need to make them fairly small - it means my idea of turnbuckles on each side to hook them up is out. I need some small hooks to pull the stop levers that I can solder cable to. Any suggestions? Seems like somebody should make such a thing, even for a rod setup. That would work as well, I think. I just don't have any contacts for parts - tried Marrs email days ago, but got no reply.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 21 March 2006 at 10:40 PM.]