I personally think theres as many pockets to be found on the simplest lap steel as on the most fully loaded D12.

I can dig up a book or two that teach based around that method; basically using chord structures are "pockets" for certain solo frameworks.

As far as the idea that they are the "same" as scales....well, in that you're playing sequential notes, sure...but then anything like that is a scale of some sort. What you need to do is lose the idea of the semantics, and think in terms of a visual interpretation of the guitar. forget theory, scale structure, and think geometrically.

Jim, A#.

Baz (concise for a change)

Jim beat me to it !

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Nic du Toit
1970 P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x5
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
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Click here for Nic's other projects
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Actually it's one of those things that's SO normal in the 6-string world I was amazed when I had mentioned it to some people in the past who played just steel and they had no idea what I was talking about. That Emmons stuff is great, and covers part of the "geographic" idea and visual aspect I mentioned.

quote:

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I don't know if anyone else referred to these "boxes" as "pockets" prior to Buddy Emmons or not.

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quote:

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It would be interesting to see a useful method of illustrating pockets on a C9th or E9th neck that included raises and lowers (or even harmonized scales?)

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[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 November 2006 at 01:15 PM.]

A lot of modern steel players don't seem to have gone that route, though - I think that was why b0b asked a question...he'd never been exposed to it, and apparently some others as well. I noticed early on when I found this place that there were lots of discussions regarding playing scales - it was the way I saw most steelers thinking. I'd get email tips from someone who would tell me how to find a particular scale.

On 6-string, jazz guys and classical guitarists are the major purveyors of scales...rock/blues/country guys, with exceptions, of course, are more apt to think and play in terms of pockets...or "patterns", if that term is more descriptive.

Again, it's a visual way of "seeing" the instrument in repeatable sections (depending on the key) that is based loosely on major and minor chord positions...but not arpeggios of the chords themselves.

quote:

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I think of "pockets" as merely what we used to call "patterns".

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

You're far too worried about all these technicalities. Relax. And read my earlier post about vizualization and losing the entire scale concept.

Do you ever just take your guitar and play geometric patterns to see what they sound like?

I would guess not....which means you would have a hard time with the whole thing. It's a common six-string concept though, and you'd be amazed how many lead breaks (guitarists don't use the term "ride") are formed solely out of "pockets"="patterns"="geometric shapes". Buddy Emmons has a great version of it for steel, if you bother to back and look at it from a "pattern" point of view, and completely forget everything you know about notes, names, scales etc. Just look at the physical stuff...not the musical terms and concepts.

Take a deep breath...it's not that hard....put the dictionary away...I guarantee you 99% of the guitarists on the planet have never seen it, and most metal and punk bands use terms for parts of *their* music that aren't likely to be in it either.

In other words - if you stop being so concerned with "the rules" you can find some great music. It's a great door to unlock.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

If you want to look at it that way.

But that's exactly what we're NOT talking about. It's hard to subtract knowledge to learn something, isn't it?

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Would I be right in saying that a pocket is a position for playing a scale?

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I think maybe one of the reasons "pockets" haven't caught on so big in the steel guitar world is because people are so prejudiced against moving the bar - it's like there's a whole style of music revolving around holding the bar at one fret and playing banjo rolls while you stomp on and off pedals. Therefore, you have no need for visual clues, because, the bar's not going anywhere anyway. Here's a subversive "pocket-generating" exercise:

quote:

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In C6th tuning, maintain holding the bar in a forward slant position. Play:
D at the 14th fret of the 7th string,
G at the 15th fret of the 6th string,
B at the 16th fret of the 5th string,
D at the 17th fret of the 4th string.

Now, hold the bar in the forward position and get different notes by changing the angle of the bar, rather than sliding it up and down. Insty-Pocket!
(hey, stomp a pedal or two while you're up there, see what happens....)

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Threadzilla!
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/003549.html

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 November 2006 at 04:13 AM.]

And with P6

or P 5

No claims on precision,
but it DID help with visulization
and general idea mapping.

Now this can be done with each basic chord available for each pedal lever combination.
Each tuning has several possible chords,
and they apear on several neck locations,
completely, and in partials.

I looked at P6 as what it changes
and then what the basic C6 then became.
In this case NOT as the IV F chord it typically creates,
but as the C neck being changed.

I had one looking at P6 with F as 1,
but it has been misplaced.

And also a P5+P6 disapeared.
These were by far the most useful.

IF you want to really understand the neck with pedals.
Map out
3 root chords for each pedal
by their scale degrees
for each pedal you commonly use.

And maybe more usefully,
for each pedal you DON'T use much.
Cause mebe you need to see into IT more.

Not saying this is some brilliant
extrapolation fron Denny's work,
but it made several logical pockets stand out
for me for soloing over open and with pedals.

Some don't solo with pedals down, I do,
and from the root position, it is nice to know the changes to "home scale" made by the pedals.
As well as the new scales created by the pedal combinations.

Same applies to E9 in an copedant.

Connect the dots as it were.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 November 2006 at 04:41 AM.]

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My initial response was to sue her for defamation of character, but then I realized that I have no character. -- Charles Barkley

[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 19 November 2006 at 11:46 PM.]

I don't agree with that at all David (but I like you anyway!).

It's not 1) arbitrary. They do "exist", it's just an approach. 2) It's not "faking it", it's a visualized way of using the fretboard, outside of theory and scalar methods. And 3) it's not "to appear competent", because it IS a wayto play competently.

Some people use it and play that way - some just can't get beyond the music lessons, books and theory to break out of the mold.

But again, on 6-string this is the common way to play - even *with* theory, and the C6 examples above (as do Buddy's) show the two CAN be combined.

quote:

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Buddy Emmons has a great version of it for steel, if you bother to back and look at it from a "pattern" point of view, and completely forget everything you know about notes, names, scales etc. Just look at the physical stuff...not the musical terms and concepts.

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The central idea behind pockets is this. Unless you have 12 strings to an octave, at any given fret or chord position you only have the notes of a chord, not a whole scale or mode, and certainly not the whole chromatic scale. But of course melodies or lead lines require scale and chromatic notes. Going up and down the neck on a single string is very inefficient, and can’t be done while holding a chord. But you can get all that stuff within a few frets by using your fingers on 6-string, moving the bar around a little on steel, and using pedals, levers, and “chromatic” strings on pedal steel. I have never seen a 6-stringer or steeler beyond the novice stage who didn’t do that. I take b0b’s initial question as a departure point for a discussion of pockets, not a demonstration of any real ignorance about what they are and how they are used. Obviously you can use them to play scales, modes, melodies, lead riffs, accidentals, or complex chords. The key word here is "obviously." It's nice for Buddy and other instructors to write out their thoughts on pockets. But the idea that other competent players are totally unaware of the concept and don't use pockets is just silly.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 20 November 2006 at 08:21 AM.]

Since the neck is laid out mathematically, then to me it logically follows that there are approprate pockets/chords/voicings up and down the neck that if played will fit whatever key you're in...and sound right. Conversely, you can play the same things in the wrong place, and it'll sound like a zoo burning down.

Also, as a slight aside, I have come to the conclusion that since the neck is laid out in a logical, mathematical way, once that part is understood, the bulk of time spent trying to gain proficiency on this thing is in technique: picking, blocking, bar control, left foot coordination on the pedals, right foot coordination on the volume pedal, muscle memory, etc. Just some thoughts. I appreciate learning from all you guys.

[This message was edited by Mike Winter on 20 November 2006 at 09:12 AM.]

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

quote:

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What happens to the pocket in C when the chord progression goes to A7? Do you switch to a different pocket?

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On E9, at a tonic fret with no pedals, if you hit the AB pedals you get a IV chord, and if you move up two frets with the pedals down you get the V chord. I consider all of that to be in one pocket. I call that the open pedal pocket. Up at the V fret there is another pocket. With no pedals it is the V chord, with AB pedals it is the I, and drop back two frets and let off the pedals it is the IV chord. I consider that the pedals-down pocket. At each of these two pockets you can get I, IV, V, VIm, IIm II, and VI within two frets either way. I also know that every note in the scale can be found in one or more of the I, IV, and V chords. So I know that every note of the scale is in each one of those pockets. Other pedals and knees add some chromatic notes to each pocket. The few chromatic notes not found that way can always be gotten by moving the bar a fret one way or the other. There are other pockets for the A pedal/F lever combination, the E lower lever, and the BC pedal combination.

For a given key there are several pockets at different places on the neck for each of the main pedal and knee levers or combinations. Another way to look at it is that for a given pedal or lever or combination, there are 12 pockets, one at each fret.

Unless he was only talking to other steel novices, Jim’s impression that steelers don’t know about pockets may have come from the way the question was framed. When you mention scales, the first thing that may come to mind is to stay on a single string and move up the neck, using slants or pedals and levers to play harmony. So it is not surprising that he was advised how to do that. But if you ask the question, “How can I play a scale or melody without moving the bar way up the neck?” Any competent steeler would be able to show him how to play in a pocket, although they might not have called it that. We talk of playing across the strings (pockets), or up and down the neck (single-string scale notes). Most steelers use a combination. They move between pockets, and use single string scale notes (possibly with harmony) to transition between pockets.

In terms of all the supposed knowledge that is "so normal" for 6-stringers and unknown to steelers, I don't buy any of it. Maybe in the '30s people took up Hawaiian steel without knowing regular guitar. But since then, the vast majority of steelers were proficient at regular guitar and all that "so normal" knowledge before they took up steel. A lot of us may neglect 6-string and get rusty and stop progressing on it, but most of us started out on 6-string.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 20 November 2006 at 10:28 AM.]

I recommend

- learning scales, but not mistaking them for music

- learning patterns (i.e. pockets) but knowing to avoid them most the time

- knowing where the chords are, but rarely playing all the notes in them at the same time

- learning licks, but changing them so you own them

- know the theory behind what you're playing, but never think about it while you're playing

- use your ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A player can visualize or memorize groups of notes (on any instrument) where he or she can obtain the sounds of notes moving singly or in harmony- these may be patterns copied from recordings, tab, or other players, and may be entire scales, scale fragments, or just groups of notes that (hopefully) sound good in the particular musical context of the moment. For example, here's a G major scale on E9, followed by a typical lick:

1
2            3
3          
4             3         3
5       3-3A             3A-3  3
6   3-3B                     3B 3B-3
7  3                                3
8 3                                  3

3
4 3
5  3A-3  4A-3A-3
6      3B       3B
7                 3
8                  3

I might use that note less frequently, but it's still in the 3rd fret "pocket"...
Here's a different place to find the same b7 note, this time for a C lick (where L= 1/2 tone lower):

1
2    3L
3
4 3
5  3A   3A-3
6           3B

4
5 4-3
6    3     3
7     3-2-3 3

1D               14
2E                 14-15
3C             14
4A        12-14
5G      12
6E 10-12

3C
4A        12-14-12
5G      12        12  12
6E 10-12            12

3C
4A        12-13-12
5G      12        12  12
6E 10-12            12

Scales and dervived patterns are a useful way to gain more knowledge and "ammunition", but I think most improvisors just add the scales to their bags of available sounds.
One of the earmarks of a real pro to me is how they weave from one chord or tonal center to another within the same "pocket"- Buddy E. and Joaquin M. spring to mind. On 6 string guitar, the machinations of Albert Lee, Brad Paisley or Brent Mason, where "modern country" licks may flit back and forth between major, minor, dominant and diminished tonalities all within a few bars and four frets, defies any "scale" definitons.

Repeated listenings to any one player usually start to reveal their favorite spots, areas, note groupings, or... pockets.

[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 20 November 2006 at 12:51 PM.]