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Stiff pedal action (Page 3)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Stiff pedal action (Page 3)
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| This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Stiff pedal action |
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Ed Miller Jr Member Posts: 102 |
posted 18 May 2001 05:57 PM
Is there any way to soften up the pedals on my Dekley S-10? My old Sho-Bud Mavericks' pedals felt like marshmallows compared to this critter! I find it hard to believe that it's supposed to be like this. Ed |
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Moon in Alaska Member Posts: 1155 |
posted 18 May 2001 07:56 PM
Ed --- I have never worked on or played a Dekley but all modern guitars has a lot of choices of leverage underneath the guitar. The changers have several holes for the rod, my Carter has 3 raise and 3 lower. the hole which is fartherest from the changer is the longer and softer pull. On the bell cranks, the closer the rod is connected to the cross shaft, the longer and softer the pull. Some players like the pedals short and firm. I like mine to be soft. Also, the more pulls on a pedal or knee, the harder it is to use. I hope I haven't gone over things here that you allready know !!!! Good Luck !!  ------------------ |
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Bill Sharpe Member Posts: 351 |
posted 18 May 2001 08:07 PM
You may wish to correspond with Smiley Roberts or Jim Smith here on the Forum both of whom are most knowledgeable of Dekley guitars. (Tell Smiley Bill said he thinks "Dickleys" sound great.)  Regards ------------------ |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 18 May 2001 08:16 PM
Moon you are correct. I have wondered a long time why certain guitars using the exact same travel, are stiffer than others. I will give you an example: The pedals and knee levers on my P-P Emmons and LeGrande are much easier to press than my Sierra was. Even after changing the leverage points so the pedal travel was identical between guitars. I do NOT have an answer for this. inch/ounces of pull IS inch/ounce of pull no matter what leverage one uses. This has always been a mystery to me. My Excel is stiffer than my LeGrande with the identical pedal travel. I do not know why this is. Please folks dont patronize me by saying "it's a matter of leverage". Inch/ounces of pull can NOT be lessened with leverage, without some form of power assist. "helper springs" are a source of power assist. And the crazy part is my Excel has helper springs and it is stiffer than my Emmons which don't use them. Noticably so. carl |
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Moon in Alaska Member Posts: 1155 |
posted 18 May 2001 08:22 PM
Yes, Carl, I have no idea why !! I helped set up a couple of guitars, and they are all different. My Carter plays so soft I can play barefooted. But it seems that some guitars, even in the most advantageous leverage spots still play a little stiff. ------------------ |
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Frank Parish Member Posts: 2327 |
posted 18 May 2001 08:36 PM
On my Franklin 4th pedal it was very stiff. I had it on the lower holes of the bellcrank and hated it. Bobby Boggs told me to put the rod as close to the cross shaft as I could and still get the pull I needed for a whole change. It works great and is soft enough to play with my bare feet. Bottom hole in the changer, top hole on the bellcrank (top hole if your guitar is set up to play) |
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jerry wallace Member Posts: 759 |
posted 18 May 2001 08:48 PM
Carl,Is it possible that the pivot point on the changer has some effect on the "stiffness"..I have been told this but have no real experience with it.. ------------------ [This message was edited by jerry wallace on 18 May 2001 at 08:49 PM.] |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 19 May 2001 03:22 AM
It is probably overall design. But, I think a lot of it in all pulls is related to the changer design. The scissors assembly that operates the changer finger probably has a lot to do with it. Some, as my Franklin, have helper springs on some strings too. I saw someone mention spongy. I don't think a "spongy" pedal action is that good. A positive pedal action would be more desireable. With the "balance" springs that were on the raise/lower rods of my old Emmons PP it did have somewhat of a spongy feel (and a lot more pressure to push than my Franklin). Then too it's what you are used to. After playing the same guitar for 18 years I don't think it's that "easy" but everyone that plays it comments on the easy pedal and knee lever action. |
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richard burton Member Posts: 1337 |
posted 19 May 2001 06:01 AM
Carl, Have you tried adjusting the helper springs on your Excel, or are they still as 'factory fitted'? I once had a Shobud LDG which had stiff pedal action. I realised that the problem was that the helper springs were too short. Let me explain. If an extension spring is, say, 2 inches long at rest, and is exteded to 2 1/2 inches, it has lengthened 1/2 inch. But, the first 1/8 inch of movement is a lot easier to pull than the last 1/8 inch movement. I realised that if I joined several extension springs together, I could get 1/2 inch of total movement, with each individual spring only moving a fraction of that amount, hence, virtually a constant load spring. I fitted springs the whole length of the guitar (and have done so on all my other steels) and this meant minimal pedal and lever travel and a very light pressure at the same time. Another benefit of having short pedal travel is that the knee levers can be positioned closer to your leg, making for much more comfortable playing. Richard. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 19 May 2001 08:25 AM
Helper springs on a Sho-Bud LDG? Did they come with helper springs? I don't think I've ever had a guitar with helper springs. I have return springs for the lowers, but they don't "help" the pedal action at all. My Sierra used to have stiff pedal action, but I've tinkered with it enough that now it's easy and feels very direct. I wish manufacturers would publish the leverage ratios of their changers and bell cranks. That would really save a lot of experimentation. It would be good to know which is the longer pull: changer hole 2 + bell crank hole 1 or changer hole 3 + bell crank hole 2. The changer holes and the bell crank holes have different distances from their pivot points. ------------------ |
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richard burton Member Posts: 1337 |
posted 19 May 2001 08:46 AM
Bobby' You may be right about the LDG helper springs, it's a long time ago that I had the Shobud, perhaps I fitted the springs myself. My memory is so bad that sometimes I look at photos of pedal steels that I have made, and can't for the life of me remember making them. Mind you, in those days I was drinking a lot of home brewed beer!! I do remember doing a modification to the lower return springs,though. I used compression springs running the entire length of the steel which made lowering the E's a lot easier. When I sold it it was in perfect playing condition,ie really easy to perform with. The person who bought it off me immediately removed all my mods and put it back to standard, thus rendering it almost unplayable by my standards. I believe pedal steel guitars should be 'fine tuned' by whatever method to make them more playable. Richard. |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 19 May 2001 10:35 AM
I was wondering- If someone had done everything they could do besides change the return springs on a scissor type all-pull, how does one then go about changing or adjusting the springs to maximize ease of playing? [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 19 May 2001 at 04:51 PM.] |
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Smiley Roberts Member Posts: 4424 |
posted 19 May 2001 10:42 AM
Hi Ed, Jim Smith here from the world famous Smilery Roberts. After much consultation with WFSR, he said he doesn't know jack about the mechanics and told me to answer.  The first thing to check is the pedal rod connecting balls on the foot pedals themselves. There are two holes for the ball connector to screw into. The hole nearest the shaft (nearest the pedal bar) will give the easiest and longest action. Next check the location of each brass rod collar in the puller. Closer to the cross shaft will give an easier pull. When you're moving multipe collars on the same pedal, move them both the same number of holes to keep the travel roughly the same. This step may require backing off on the pedal stop screw, since easier travel = longer travel. Finally a good cleaning of the changer and lubrication of all moving parts may be in order. There are many other threads on this to refer to. Hope that helps, |
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johnnyb Member Posts: 116 |
posted 19 May 2001 12:33 PM
On the foot pedal, the closer you get to the shaft, the pull is easier but shorter. The mechanical advantage reverses itself at each lever in the pulling train. foot pedal = more travel= harder pull// pedal rod lever on crossrod= more travel= eaiser pull// bellcrank on crosrod = more travel= harder pull//and so on... johnnyb |
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Smiley Roberts Member Posts: 4424 |
posted 19 May 2001 05:02 PM
Jim Smith here again. Sorry johnnyb, but your physics description is wrong. All pulls anywhere on the guitar are basic lever and fulcrum. Closer to the shaft = longer pull = easier pull. Further from the shaft = shorter pull = harder pull. |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 19 May 2001 10:06 PM
Jerry, Changing the pivot point in the changer relative to another model guitar indeed does make a given pull (all else being equal) easier or harder to press. But that still gets right back to the "inch/pounds" of physics. And one can never gain a mechanical advantage using leverage unless you sacrifice travel for ease of pull, without some form of power assist. In other words, if it requires .125 inch of travel @ 50 ounces of pull to raise the 3rd string from a G# to an A at the top of the changer, it would require that same ratio of inch/ounces of pull anywhere one measured it, minus any losses due to friction. So, if we sacrifice inches (by changing the pivot point), and doubled it to .25 inches we would have less ounces of pull. In this case 25 ounces of pull or exactly one half the effort. A longer pull but easier to pull. And vice-versa. But this does not explain why My Emmons was easier to press the B pedal than My Sierra when BOTH pedals were adjusted to have the exact same amount of travel with each pedal pressure being measured at the exact same distance from the pedal pivot point. Richard, yes I have tried adjusting the raise helper strings all the way from maximum aid to no affect at all. And the Emmons' which has NO helper springs is still easier. And anyone can notice it by pressing them. Where this really manifests itself is when doing "chickin pickin". It is just more tiring on the Sierra or the Excel than my Emmons. Slower engagements do not seem to matter much. Smiley, got a problem. Very respectfully it may be semantics but at the changer the further from the pivot point, the easier, the pull. At the bell crank, the closer to the pivot point the easier the pull. At the crossrod crank the further from the pivot point the easier the pull. At the pedal, the closer to the pivot point that the rod attaches, the easier the pull. This back and forth scenario is due to something my mechanical engineering students always had a problem with. The answer is this; Are we talking about the driven member or the driving member. Without knowing this, and careful study, it can drive one up the wall. Some students simply NEVER got it. I suggested they change and become doctors or lawyers carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 19 May 2001 at 10:33 PM.] |
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Tom Ward Member Posts: 241 |
posted 20 May 2001 06:53 AM
I totally agree with b0b in regard to manufacturers suplying a chart or "adjustment information" sheet when they sell you a steel. It's no fun to keep searching for the "right feel". |
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J D Sauser Member Posts: 1240 |
posted 20 May 2001 08:55 AM
Carl is right (in my book): Some guitars (by brand or model) are stiffer than others. Sure, you can hook it up to a longer leverage your changer for a longer (easier throw) on your pedal or lever, but compared to an other guitar (brand/model) with the same string (gauge and length) and pedal/lever travel (short: all things being equal except brand/model)... some are stiffer than others. Besides some excessive friction and or binding in some models... it can logically only be traced back to the changer (ratios at the scissors and finger). Funny thing is that DEKLEY used an almost equal changer (scissor-finger ratio) as the MSA-Classic models: But the MSA had an easier action (all other things being equal)... ... J-D. [This message was edited by J D Sauser on 20 May 2001 at 04:41 PM.] |
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johnnyb Member Posts: 116 |
posted 20 May 2001 10:36 AM
Jim, Maybe we're saying the same thing and I just gave a poor explaination. (or I could be totally screwed up...it's been known to happen). Let's say that we ignore the travel(for illustration purposes) and set up a pull for the least amount of pedal pressure to make a change. At the foot pedal the advantage is closest to the pivot point. At the other end of the pedal rod, the advantage is fartherest from the pivot point. At the bellcrank (on the crossrod) the advantage is closest to the Pivot point. At the string finger ( let's use a simple push/pull), the advantage is again farther from the pivot point. So in order to make a pull with the least amount of pedal pressure(ignoring travel) connections at these four points would be: pedal=close to pivot : pedal rod crank=far from pivot point:bellcrank=close to pivot point: string finger=far from pivot point. If we ignore the pressure it takes to make a pull and look at only getting maximum travel, then situation is just the opposite. So if we are attempting to either get more travel or make a pull easier, the point at which we attach to any lever in the pulling train ( in relation to it's pivot point) reverses at each lever if we are trying to gain the same mechanical advantage throughout. This was why I stated that the mechanical advantage reverses at each point in the pulling train. That was probably a poor choice of words...of course a lever always works the same way! That's just the way that I picture it whenever I adjust a pull. After years of tinkering with these adjustments, I never think of the crossrod with pedal rod crank and bellcrank assembly as a single lever ( with the fulcrum at the crossrod ). Instead, I picture the pedal rod crank (at one end of the crossrod) as a lever and the bellcrank(elsewhere on the crossrod) as another lever. Thus, keeping the direction in which I wish to apply torque in mind, the point at which I connect (in relation to each simple levers' pivot point) reverses at each adjustment in the pulling train to gain the same advantage. Respectfully, [This message was edited by johnnyb on 20 May 2001 at 11:58 AM.] |
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