• the drums are too busy and too loud
• the mix is compressed to the point where it sounds like a TV commercial
• the singer's accent sounds phoney
• the steel licks are only 2 beats long

• Drums too loud and too busy
• With a few exceptions, it's lost the "simplicity" that made it real
• Arrangements that are so full that the individual instruments and talent are lost
• There aren't songs anymore that feature steel prominently throughout the majority of the song (as in "together again" for example)
• I personally prefer good country shuffles and waltzes, neither of which fit the "program" these days for the most part.

Now, before I get any backlash let me point out that I said in most cases the above is true. There are some exceptions (Brad Paisley, most Alan Jackson & George Strait, and a few others), but for the most part I'd just prefer to hear the good old stuff.

I'm looking forward to the responses on this thread, and to learning more about the specific musical differences that you all can point to in the NCS which turn you off.

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Chad Smith

Fender B&G Bender Tele
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe
Temporarily "Steel-less in Tucson"

Not enough steel -- AMEN. As a steel player, I would love to hear more of it, but, OH WELL. Not my record, not my choice.

Although there is not a lot of steel, I do enjoy great harmonies (sometimes the backup vocals are better than the artist) and other instrumentation (guitar, mandolin, (b0b forgive me) banjo, etc. One example is the song "It Takes a Little Rain" by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. I crank the song up LOUD (to where my hair stands up straight) and listen to one of the best guitar solos I have ever heard in my life (IMHO). No steel, but WOW, what a great song.

A song with great lyrics will turn me on even if I don't care for the artist or it doesn't have any steel.

I grew up on rock and roll as well as country, so I guess that is why NCS doesn't repulse me like it does some others.

Well, I've dug my hole deep enough.

OOPS! Thought of some more stuff. I don't like that a lot of the newer artists sound alike.

Is the "dryer" or "compressed" sound of NCS the result of digital recording as opposed to analog used in the olden days? This is something I have wondered about as I really don't know the answer.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 21 July 2002 at 09:55 AM.]

Specifics about what I don't like are:

• Distorted Flashy Guitar Solos, that sound like 80's Van Halen-ish rock. Travis Tritt uses a lot of these.
  
• Songs that have no memorable melody. Can you whistle them, or play them as an instrumental?
  
• Over-produced Ballads. Usually featuring Female Vocalists, backed by Orchestral Arrangements. What's Country about this??
  
• Lack of Acoustic Guitar.
  
• "Dance Mix" style production featuring too much BASS & DRUMS.
  
• "Chick Songs" that put down guys in a way that the reverse would be unacceptable.
  

Good topic!

It's elevator music with a fancy wrapper. It's fluff. Perhaps a lot of it is technically challenging I'm sure, but it's just got no SOUL.

I know that ain't specific, but it's just plain SQUARE.

Actually I don't get to listen to current CW these days because there is no radio station that plays it in my region.

When we had the Bicentennial affair back in '76, some woman sang the national anthem that brought cries of dismay from across the nation because of that flipping, yodel like effect. It sounds like a dying duck in a thunderstorm or a lovesick dog howling back at an owl. I know some people love it but it makes me sick and since I hear it everytime I turn on the radio, I don't turn the darn thing on anymore. I've just stopped listening to anything.

BTW: live on TV early one morning, our co-host asked the host if he knew how to learn to yodel. He said you take a raw oyster and tie a string on it and after you swallow, you pull it back up. And there in the audio portion of the show you could hear one of the musicians getting sick in a trash can.
One of the hazards of live TV and perhaps why they don't do it any more.....

quote:

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We have lost the distinction between country and pop...at least on the radio

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First of all, I like all music...Its the delivery method that seems to get my goat these days...

Guys and Gals like George Jones, Waylon, Lorreta and such added life experience credibility to the lyrics....Although the new crop of very young singers are extremely talanted they just seem to loose my interest when they sing about the blues, love etc...what does a 14-20 year old know about love (other than the mechanics)?

Also, along the lines of delivery..the music is just too perfect...thanks to modern recording methods and the engineer's ability to move licks around and "pull" to pitch. I really love the occasional "clams" on older recorded music were a player normaly had one shot at his track and had to make it count. Its those "clams" that make music come alive to alot of us...who would want to watch a ball game or boxing match or race if you new what the out-come would be? Nobody droping the ball, spinning out etc.

Bla, bla, bla sorry for ranting.

Opinionatedly yours,

Tom Jordan

[This message was edited by Tom Jordan on 21 July 2002 at 01:46 PM.]

A lot of today's country is also homogeneous in both writing and performance. As for writing, a lot of the songs 'try' to sound country by making sure they mention the pickup truck, the dog, the lost love(s), the farm, moonshine, the wide open fields and two lane roads.... these things are fine and are basic elements in country music, but you know it's stilted material when they show up all in the same song. As for performance (and we've discussed this here before), the Nashville producers hedge their bets by using the A-Team and/or their close associates virtually all the time. I grew up on 60's and 70's rock and that never happened... it was the real band in the studio, for better or for worse. God bless those studio legend guys, they are absolutely great and I love to hear them. But I also appreciate it when somebody's road band gets in there, as with Dwight Yoakam, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Alison Krause, and others.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

[This message was edited by Janice Brooks on 21 July 2002 at 07:09 PM.]

[Hmmm. You mean Hal Rugg is still available for session work?]

[This message was edited by Jeff Evans on 21 July 2002 at 06:49 PM.]

You're right, FM pretty much doesn't need processing. The processing (particularly the compression) has the peculiar effect of pumping up the music and somehow adding an element of excitement to it. And I agree, it works. I guess it sells music better (grabs the ear). But to my mind it is a kind of tampering.... it messes with what the artists, producers, and musicians spend hundres of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to refine. I find it rather annoying. Our local country station, KRTY, is a pretty dawgone good station (and the only country station left in the San Francisco Bay area) but they process the HECK out of their broadcast program material. Eeek. The new digital radio broadcasters such as cable and sattelite channels don't process their sound at all (at least not that I've heard so far). It sounds much better.

The programers at Clear Channel can't get the mula from these folks to influence play
on their radio stations.

My local country station is under Forever broadcasting and they have played Singletary
and Gene Watson.
Is anyone else who bothers to listen to country radio hearing anything from these
sub labels?

quote:

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The processing (particularly the compression) has the peculiar effect of pumping up the music and somehow adding an element of excitement to it. And I agree, it works. I guess it sells music better (grabs the ear).

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James R.Hall
MSA S10 & MSA D12

I've got some incredibly crappy cassette recordings of Johnny Paycheck, Ray Price and Buck Owens stuff that I listen to regularly. Sounds like about a 3rd or 4th generation cassette dub, but the songs are cool enough I don't care. To me, if the song is good, it'll shine through lousy (or strange?) audio quality. True, we all have our own idea of what 'good' is, but for me that doesn't involve the delivery medium.

That said, I've got no problem with 'modern' production. I've got new George Jones recordings with impeccable recording and production and in some cases some pretty upfront drums (particularly big snare and kick) and bass guitar. It's not really a traditional country mix, but it sounds pretty good to me.

Regarding NCS, and any other music for that matter, I either like it or I don't. On the first listen or two I seldom anaylyze a song too deeply and make any specific judgements about the instrumentation, mix or whatever. It either appeals to me or not. It might be an interesting steel lick, a really good vocal, or a great rhythm section, or something else.

On the other hand, some of the stuff that really sends me reaching for the tuner button is the 'She-daisy' type stuff that is so obviously a slant to the 'manufactured pop' side. I guess I've got some built in 'crap detector' that goes off any time a song crosses the boundary. I don't know where the boundary is exactly, and sometimes it's a little hazy, but it's definitely there. Maybe everybody has one of these, they're just calibrated a little differently?

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Home Page

Dave, you have a point.... but I think we're talking about two meanings for the word compression. The first meaning--which b0b and I are referring--to is dynamic range compression, which is the continuous and very rapid automatic changing of the loudness of the music so that soft passages in the music are brought up to be nearly as loud as the loud passages. This literally reduces the dynamic range of music so that instead of it naturally varying over a wide range of decibels, it varies only over a narrow range of decibels... and it always stays near the loudest point, at least the way modern radio uses it. The other type of compression which I think you are referring to in digital broadcast is "data compression". Data compression is ideally not supposed to have any effect on the sound at all (in contrast to dynamic range compression), it is only supposed to reduce the amount of digital data needed to contain the sound (that is, to reduce the file size or the streaming bit rate). That makes for more music per disc or squeezes in better quality sound through a limited speed network connection. MP3 is one form of data compression for static files, and there are assorted of data compression standards for streaming audio (RealAudio, LiquidAudio, ATRAC for Minidisc, etc.). Unfortunately, when data compression is used aggressively (as in low bit rate MP3s and such), the audio IS effected, though not in the way dynamic range compression effects it. Heavy data compression results in muddy (no high end) sound and/or weird artifacts being added to the sound (warbling, splatter, echo, and so on).

As digital broadcast goes, I'll admit I've not heard much yet, but when I have heard it it's been clear that there was no dynamic range compression (and no commercials!). On the other hand, I'm sure digital broadcasters use data compression in order to conserve precious bandwidth in the cable or satellite systems. I've been toying with the idea of getting digital radio for the sake of getting clean, non-stop, uncompressed (dynamic range, that is), commercial free country radio at home or in my car. It would be cool.

[Bill Terry, I just read your post (we posted at the same time). Excellent point. Good music transcends bad media. Also, for me, 'reasonable' music can be rather badly tinged by the processing on today's FM radio.]

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Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 22 July 2002 at 07:47 AM.]

The R&R producers from LA flooded Nashville about 15-20 years ago, when they couldn't make a living at R&R anymore. They brought many musicians with them. Very few of them even had an idea of what C/W music was supposed to sound like, let alone the "feel" to play it right.

If you obseve some of the live groups, it will give you an idea of where the thinking lies behind the music. So many of them have musicians who have never heard of guys like Buddy Harmon, Jr. Huskey, Bob Moore, Ray Edington, Pig Robbins, and the folks that "made" the "Nashville Sound" as we know it.Some,not all, steel Players have done their homework, for the most part, and have listened to the older players, and learned from them. I can't say that for the majority of piano players, drummers, bass players, guitar players, etc. I've observed at the Opry, these guys walking past Buddy Harmon, Leon Rhodes, and these C/W Icons. They don't pay one bit of attention to them, don't know or even care who they are. IMHO, that is sad and plain "pathetic."

One more observation.: When a guitar, steel, fiddle, or any lead instrument plays a solo in the middle of the song, you almost never hear the melody. The older styles always had the melody going in the instrumental solos. At least people played around the melody, and you could hear it within the solo.

One other thing and I'll quit.: Why do these groups have to have upteen ELECTRIC rythym guitars banging open chords out of tune. I'm sorry, but bOb your'e absolutely right! It is pure unadulterated SHIT.

quote:

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I guess I've got some built in 'crap detector' that goes off any time a song crosses the boundary. I don't know where the boundary is exactly, and sometimes it's a little hazy, but it's definitely there.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 22 July 2002 at 08:16 AM.]