Eric:
I emphatically praised George Jones - I didn't call HIM a novelty act! He's a musicians' singer and belongs in the highest musical ranks along with the best from all fields (Sinatra included).

In the course of my varied musical work, I'm often asked by other musicians what I see in country music - they're fascinated by pedal steel, and intrigued when I show them that I (or should I say 'it'!) can play any chord they want to hear. They're surprised, as they've 'pigeon-holed' steel guitar through their ignorance of its capabilities.

These guys are good players, but hold misconceptions about 'country', based, as they tell me, on what they've been exposed to. They'll very likely cite Johnny Cash as a good example of what they mean - unsubtle rhythm tracks, a less-than-refined singing style, and little trace of any virtuoso playing.

Well, I don't care for JC's work, either - for those very reasons; the list I gave above includes some of the others who, in my view, fall very short of even a reasonable musical standard. Porter Waggoner is another who comes to mind.

I KNOW these guys are 'legends', 'institutions', or whatever - they're just not very good, and I won't buy anyone's CD unless I can learn something from it.

Now, if I want to be bothered trying to demonstrate to another musician that he's missing something by ignoring country music, I have to be careful which singers I commend. From the current crop, I'd suggest Joe Nichols, Joe Diffie, Randy Travis, Trisha Yearwood, Lee Ann Womack, Alison Krauss, and even Sara Evans (she's got good 'chops') - there are a few more, but not too many!

From yesteryear, I'd recommend Ray Price, Merle, Lefty and, of course, George Jones, the master!

It's not difficult to find great playing to complete this demonstration - there's very little poor playing on Nashville records, although some of it IS a bit repetitive; Brent, Paul, Matt Rollins, Sonny G., Jerry Douglas, Stuart Duncan (and lots more) have had some stellar studio moments in their time!

Does this make sense to anyone? It was the musicianship of guys like Chet, Don Rich, Buddy Emmons, James Burton and Jerry Reed that first caught my attention and steered me towards this genre - I'll happily play these guys' work to anyone who'll listen, but I tend to keep quiet about the ones who sound like they lack even the most fundamental skills!

Roger Rettig

PS: Donna - I'm afraid I won't be at the show - I'm happy that I'm working on a show until late-October, but very UNHAPPY to miss another ISGC!

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 21 August 2003 at 06:51 AM.]

I read no disrespect into your post, but in my memory George Jones WAS a novelty act.

I remember "Ain't no Haint", Wham Bam, WHo shot Sam" ( flip side of) "White Lightnin' "I'm a People" All of the Monkeys Ain't in the Zoo, Yabba Dabba Do, the King is gone and so are you, and a couple others that were REALLY GREAT!

Nobody had anything on Tater though when it came to novelty. "Out Behind the Barn". "Sleepin at the foot of the bed, take a tater and wait, Stole my Steel Guitar, Little but Loud, God.. they went on and on and on...

J Cash had a bunch, like Egg Sucking Dog, Boa Constrictor and Ten More Minutes, Everybody loves a nut, One piece at a time, Boy named Sue, and a much more that approached greatness, but then too I think the Marketing People shut it off.

Sadly it's been forgotten.

It took Alabama almost until they were in Depends to come out with "Prop Me Up against the jukebox when I die."

It was in my estimation Fear from Marketing Directors.

Probably OLD ones at that....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 22 August 2003 at 06:20 AM.]

I heard a recording engineer put it this way: Popular music is like mass-produced beer. It's fairly bland so as to appeal to everyone. In short, nothing to be ecstatic about, but not too much to hate. On the other hand, a handcrafted beer, with bolder flavor and interesting qualities appeals to more discerning folks.

Mine's got some cobwebs in it this week....

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Sho-Bud ProII
"there's been an awful murder, down on music row!"

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Sho-Bud ProII
"there's been an awful murder, down on music row!"

[This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 27 August 2003 at 02:44 PM.]

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200

quote:

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Ronnie really doesn't need Kix

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I prefaced my remark by saying "in my mind".

Humor is perhaps the most important quality of men. With it they can confront even death itself with little concern. That's loosely from a chinese writing I found in a Wilhelm Baines translation of the I Ching.

I miss that in "todays" music.

A lot.

I know you'll excuse me if i say goodnight
I've got a promise to fullfil
Thank you for listening to my troubles
Pardon me, I've got someone to kill

I warned him not to try and take her from me
He laughed and said you know if i can i will
So tonight when they get home I'll be waiting
Pardon me, I've got someone to kill

I know I'll surely die for what I'm about to do
But it don't matter I'm a dead man anyhow

This gun will buy back the pride they took from me
And also end this life of mine, that's worthless now

By the time you tell the sherriff, it'll all be over
He'll find me at their big house on the hill
He'll find a note explaining why I killed us all
Now it's time to go, I've got someone to kill.

- Johnny Paycheck.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 01 September 2003 at 10:54 PM.]

My point is that while this type of discussion can be interesting, the kind of question which started this thread generally results in an answer that is so subjective as to be almost meaningless. How do you objectively determine whether somebody is really over-rated? What is the standard?

I propose that there are more objective ways of determining whether a singer/musician is, in fact, over-rated, than simply asking an opinion. For example, let's make up an imaginary value and call it a "rating factor."

Now ask, how does the "rating factor" of one singer/musician compare to that of another singer/musician, where the "rating factor" is a ratio of the relative generally percieved singer/musician popularity over the relative number (not dollar value) of records sold as a percentage of the available market at the time by that given singer/musician?

Those singers/musicians who have a relatively high "rating factor" (ie - a high percieved popularity in relation to the total number of records sold) could justifiably be labeled "over-rated" while those with a relatively low percieved popularity in relation to the total number of records sold could be called "under-rated."

I admit that the concept of "percieved popularity" is a bit subjective. However, it can be measured to some degree, as in the amount of "face time" a given artist gets on TV talk shows, advertisements, etc. etc.

Alternatively, and/or additionally, you could do a survey (or a vote), in which a segment of the population (or a segment of the forum) is asked to rate a list of singer/musicians according to what they percieve to be each singer/musician's overall popularity. etc. etc.

Also, the "available market" would probably vary in relation to the year. That is, most current singer/musicians have an associated "available market" that is significantly larger than the "available market" associated with older artists. I say this because modern marketing techniques target a much broader segment of the population compared with marketing techniques (if there even were any) in the golden olden days.

Just a few random, pointless thoughts

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 01 September 2003 at 11:45 PM.]

quote:

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Also, the "available market" would probably vary in relation to the year. That is, most current singer/musicians have an associated "available market" that is significantly larger than the "available market" associated with older artists. I say this because modern marketing techniques target a much broader segment of the population compared with marketing techniques (if there even were any) in the golden olden days.
Just a few random, pointless thoughts.

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Good points, Tom! So, consider “face-time” the rating factor most of us probably used to make our subjective vote. Then those of us who are judging have our own “face-time” indices based on personal exposure traced through demographics such as your workplace or media preferences. Then again, there’s positive “face-time” AND negative.
With a new formula all in place now, I figure my original vote for Kenny Chesney was totally based on “perceived” face-time. So I took a Dodd household “survey”. It was only me home with my Yorkie, who tilted her head like the RCA dog with both ears perked up straight. I’m afraid her vote was in favor of Kenny. But what does she know - yorkie's are bred to chase mice! I absentee voted for Tommy. Then we considered marketing strategies, record sales, etc. (I’m sorry, that’s all confidential) and still came up with Kenny Chesney. But he does have a good steel player!! I think he plays a Zum!
Maybe if he did something original like put a hole in his hat?

That said I also heard some things VERY over produced, a lot more tubes in over drive than it used to be (this I don't mind), and a ton of attitude.

There were a few more traditional songs, and several I can hear in constant roadhouse band rotation.

After 11 pm with too many hours on the road I tuned in the thrash speed metal stations, LOUD, to keep awake and see what's happening there too.

One the trip back I listened to the 16 steel albums I got.

I don't think there was anything much i HATED, but the country stuff seemed to have grown with it's newer generation in step with changing tastes.

Just like the transition from Hank W., Lefty and Hank Snow to Ray Price and Chet's productions.
You can here this clearly on the Hank Snow compilation I have.
I can see the transition from Alabama, Desert Rose, Eagles, and others of that period to the current batch of country groups.

I heard a Ken Chesny tune, a few times, before I learned it was him. I liked the tune and then was surprised it was him.

I don't know who does it, but there was a tune about 3 crosses by the road, preacher, teacher a hooker etc. Seemed a thorw back tune, but was strong enough to get airplay anyway.

Some of the well known names were a bit more rocked out, but the style fit the songs, and again constant barband standards.