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  What is the chord numbering for E, F, G? (Page 2)

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Author Topic:   What is the chord numbering for E, F, G?
Mark Vinbury
Member

From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

posted 01 December 2006 08:10 AM     profile     
David.
Guess we're just on different pages with this stuff.Seems to be always somthing muddy when modes comes up.

Here is a link to support my "book"-
http://www.free-online-piano-lessons.com/scale-tone-chords.html

I think it is redundant to lable a II or III scale tone chord as minor.
If someone says a tune is I,VI,II,V I'd say the 6 and 2 are minor unless labled otherwise.
I also think that if a straight D chord pops up in a key of C tune you've changed keys.So in the II,V turn around that was mentioned I'd need to have the II labled M.

David Doggett
Member

From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 01 December 2006 08:11 AM     profile     
Wait, I just figured out what Mark means by “the III chord is always a minor unless otherwise noted.” If you march up a major scale using each degree as the root of a chord, AND USING ONLY SCALE NOTES (NO ACCIDENTALS), then the chords made at degrees 2, 3, 6, and 7 would be minors. For a C scale that would be Dm, Em, Am, and Bm. Only chords at degrees 1, 4, and 5 would be major chords (C, F, G). But in actual songs, chords with degrees 2 or 3 as the root are just as likely to be major chords with accidentals written in for the 3rds. So when using a number system for those chords, I always write II or IIm, or III or IIIm, to avoid confusion, the same way I would for letter chords. I think most number systems designate minors in some way. And when discussing chords for a modal scale such as the Phrygian, any preconceived idea about which degrees of the modal scale form major and minor chords kind of goes out the window. The natural Phrygian scale is a minor scale, and so for E Phrygian, the tonic chord would be Em with G natural as the 3rd. But at least in Gypsy flamenco, the E major chord is used, with G# as the 3rd, which uses the harmonic or “Gypsy” Phrygian scale. But in spite of that, when marching up the scale with chords, the chord formed at the 3rd degree is usually G major, using G natural as the root. And in fact that is the sequence of chords in parts of Malaguena (E, F, G). The harmonic Phrygian scale is used for the E chord, but the natural Phrygian scale is used for the G chord. So seems like to me, you have to specify minor or major, whether you use a number system or letters.

Edited: Mark and I posted at the same time. So I posted before I read his link. That link is indeed talking about "scale tone chords;" that is, chords made marching up the degrees of the scale and using only scale notes (which would actually make the degree 7 chord diminished, not minor as I mistakenly said above). This is all well and good, but that link is not discussing any number system of chord notation. I think most number systems do not assume they will be read as "scale tone chords." So they do not leave this to chance, and always specify whether the chord is major, minor, diminished, etc. So again, it's all semantics and we are both right. In speaking of scale tone chords, each one is understood to be major, minor or diminished. But in most standard number system notation, this is not assumed, but is clearly specified somehow.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 December 2006 at 08:22 AM.]

Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 01 December 2006 08:45 AM     profile     
I think that this topic has become way too obscured and over-analyzed.

When using figured bass symbols for chords, major and dominant chords are upper case (IV, V) and minor chords lower case (ii7, viiø).

David Doggett
Member

From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 01 December 2006 09:25 AM     profile     
You're probably right, Mike. But still, it's kind of fun for some of us. And I learned from it.
Mark Vinbury
Member

From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

posted 01 December 2006 09:29 AM     profile     
Me too.
Thanks David
Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 01 December 2006 09:31 AM     profile     
Well, the cool thing is you take the information and see it and use whichever makes sense to you. Some people, such as Allan Holdsworth, even created their own way of notating things.

But, when it comes down to it, the old standard ways of music theory and nomenclature are pretty much the way to go. It would be really great to see Music Theory classes popping up in high schools again. In my MT classes, we didn't do much, but I took all the workbooks (something like 12 or 15 of them) and did them all on my own time. Class time was just for hanging out with the under-achievers.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 01 December 2006 at 09:33 AM.]

Jussi Huhtakangas
Member

From: Helsinki, Finland

posted 01 December 2006 12:08 PM     profile     
"Jussi
I'm just an ol' Hollywood boy. I was referring to The Ventures' version"

What's The Ventures, ah-ah!?? Just kidding, I know you were referring to that Herb. I wonder if The Ventures had heard Johnny Smith's version instead of Chet's, had they ever recorded it.

Sorry for the topic drift!!


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