Are there any steel guitar Malaguena recordings out there?

Thank you;

Thank you for your replys.

[This message was edited by Olli Haavisto on 23 November 2006 at 09:38 AM.]

In this mode, E, F, and G chords are simply I, II, III chords. The IV chord is usually IVm. A very common progression is IVm, III, II, I; or Am, G, F, E. Even though we have taken the notes from the C scale, this is not in the key of C. It is in the key of E Phrygian.

I'm not really sure how to handle this technically with the number system. If you number it the way I have above, it assumes you know the Phrygian scale. If you approach it without this knowledge, and use the standard major scale (Ionian mode), the chords E, F, G, and Am would be: I, IIb, IIIb, IVm.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 November 2006 at 07:22 AM.]

Sonbone

------------------
http://geocities.com/sonbone1
sonbone@geocities.com

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

------------------
Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
78' Emmons D10 P/P

Here is a fairly simple explanation of modes: http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/modesandscales.htm. And here is probably way more than you want to know about modes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode.

It is neat to experiment with the different modes to see what they sound like. Just sit at a keyboard and play the 7 scales you get by playing only the white notes and starting the scale on a different note each time. We all know the usual major scale starting on C. That is the Ionian mode. Also, we all know the minor scale you get starting on A, which is also called the Aeolian mode. Some of the other modes have a special sound that you will recognize as being Spanish or middle-eastern or having a mystical sound. The modes are just scales with different intervals than the standard major and minor scales. The real way to use modes is to learn the intervals, so that you can play different modes, but all starting on the “key” note, rather on different notes like I described above. There are certain chords that go with each mode. Knowing different modes helps you know scales that can be played over a particular chord.

Since you can play a major scale on pedal steel at a single fret, that means it is also possible to play all 7 modes at a single fret. You just start the scale on a different string, or with a different pedal. But in order to keep all the modes starting on the same “key” note, you would have to go to a different fret for each one. So knowing which fret to go to and which string to start on is the secret to knowing how to use modes. It does give you a headache. This stuff I know about, but never took the time to learn how to use it. Maybe some day…

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 November 2006 at 09:31 AM.]

edit: That would me in G. After thinking about it, I think it's in C. 3m, 4 and 5? In C.

------------------
My best,
Ernie

www.BuddyEmmons.com

[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 30 November 2006 at 02:16 PM.]

------------------

I later realized that "Walk, Don't Run" is in the key of Am, and therefore the chords do fit in the harmonic minor scale (w/ natural F). So the song is in the Aeolian mode.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

------------------
www.mikeneer.com

Mike Neer on MySpace

So it was off-topic, but probably educational to some people... like me, for instance.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Ernesto Lecuona was somewhat of a clever composer, as he wrote "The Breeze and I" 1941..Siboney 1929..
And his distant cousin Margarita Lecuona wrote Taboo 1941... .and Babalu 1941. It would appear that they had a deep understanding of the genre, they were in part helping to create.

I hate to disagree,(Probably wrongly as per usual) but in my mind Malaguena is in the key of A minor if the chords are as described above.i.e. E F G etc.
Would someone care to post a picture of the sheet music PLEASE. and put me out of my misery !!
Finding the music should represent no problem, there are at least a million copies around somewhere.

quote:

---

Malaguena 1927

Music, Spanish words Ernesto Lecuona
Words Marian Banks

Perhaps one reason Lecuona rarely receives due credit is that he was often too good. The best example of this is "Malaguena," which is frequently attributed to a classical Spanish composer such as Albeniz or Rodrigo. Its early popularity was through sheet music, back in the days when that medium still gave records a run for the money--its publisher sold over 1 million copies in ten years. And as with many of Lecuona's songs, it could be versatile in its applications. Andre Kostelanetz chose it as the lead track for his South Pacific LP, "The Lure of the Tropics." A few years later, the 101 Strings put it on their "Soul of Spain, Vol 2" album. A "malaguena" is a woman of Malaga, a Spanish city on the Mediterranean.

---

------------------

Hate to disagree with you David, but look at any score for Malaguena by Albeniz for guitar, and it's key signature is Am or C. If it was in the key of E Major, the notes D# F# and C#, as well as G# would be present (but you know that already ) The E serves as the V chord of Am.
Mike

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 29 November 2006 at 08:34 PM.]

This raises a question about what we mean when we say a song is in a certain key. When you start analyzing it like this, it actually is a sort of vague concept. In fact, to a musical illiterate, it can be very difficult to explain what "the key" means. It implies a set of chords. But all songs in a given key don't use all the typical chords, and some add additional chords. Many songs don't start on the key chord. Most songs resolve to the key chord at the end of phrases and at the end of the song. But there are exceptions to that also.

In the case of modes other than Ionic and Aeolian, the key signature and written music can be as if the Ionic/Aeolian mode is used, although a song in another mode will end and resolve to a different root. Malaguena clearly begins on an E chord and resolves most phrases to E. I don't know that a C chord is used anywhere in the piece (don't have the whole score), and the Am chord is used only as a passing chord. It is especially obvious on guitar that the home chord one keeps playing off of and coming back to is E.

However, it does sometimes have the 7th of the E chord, which at times makes it seem like the dominant 7th, which would be the V7 of Am. The 7th of a V7 chord is an interesting note. Unlike the minor 7th interval of a I chord or IV chord, which are accidental or chromatic notes outside the scale, the minor 7th of a V7 chord is a scale note, and that is one reason it is so common. But likewise, the minor 7th of the tonic chord of E Phyrigian is also a note from the Phrygian scale, and not an accidental or chromatic note. So it is much more natural to have a minor 7th in the tonic chord of a piece of music in Phrygian mode. Thus, the common presence of the minor 7th does not necessarily imply it is the V7, as it does in the Ionian mode. In the Phrygian mode it is very common to have a minor 7th interval in the Phrygian tonic or I chord.

E7 is also the III7 chord of the key of C - but that doesn't mean that every piece of music with an E7 chord in it is in the key of C. I suppose you could say that any Am piece is in the key of C; but that is usually considered the relative major, not the key of an Am piece.

Malaguena could just as well have been written with a key signature of E. But because it is in a mode other than Ionian or Aeolian, and because the Phrygian mode uses the I# and II# chords and the IVm, rather than the Ionian I, IV, and V chords, you would have to write in a lot of accidental natural signs. So it is more efficient to write it with a C/Am key signature, which only requires writting in the 3rd of the E chord as an accidental.

But if you think about it, you could write any piece of music in any key with a C/Am key signature, and just write in a bunch of accidentals to make the chords right. So maybe the convention is to write all modes in the key signature of the Ionian/Aeolian modes. But outside of C/Am as the Ionian/Aeolian mode, I'm not sure that would always guarantee the fewest accidentals.

So this is a bit of a head scratcher. I think if you forget about how Lecuona chose to write the piece in written music, and just relate to the sound, it starts with an E chord and continually resolves the phrases to the E chord, and so seems to be in the key of E, with a Phrygian scale (although I didn't always know that is what it is called) rather than an E Ionian scale. Maybe someone with some real music school theory background and more knowledge of modal theory can help clear this up.

So here is the question. If a song is in E Phrygian, but the composer chose to write it in the Aeolian mode key signature (which has the same scale notes); what key is the piece really in?

And here's the question that this thread really started with. In the Ionian/Aeolian modes, the chords are numbered according to the scale degree. But suppose the piece is in another mode. Do you number the chords according to the scale degree of the mode, beginning on the root of the mode, or do you always go back to the Ionian/Aeolian mode and number the chords according to those scale degrees? Inquiring minds want to know.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 November 2006 at 01:31 AM.]

The most important thing to know is harmony and the function of chords within a tune. Very often a chord will step out of the bounds of the key center (such as E7 functioning as a V7--in theory it should be Emin7 as the v7--which is a Western development that gives a sense of stronger resolution to the tonic minor chord--here, as I said, we have to use another scale, such as Melodic minor or Harmonic minor to give us this strong resolution.)

Anyway, I haven't had my coffee yet....

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 30 November 2006 at 08:17 AM.]

But there is some confusion in the Wikipedia style. I figured if the A Aeolian mode is referred to as the key of A minor, not the key of C, then that convention could be used for the other modes. Apparently not so. Aeolian mode seems to be an exception in this style, and it is commonly referred to as the key of the relative minor. But none of the other modes are referred to as “keys.”

This exception led to some confusion as to whether E7 implies the key of A minor. Because of the semantic exception above for the Aeolian mode being referred to as the relative minor “key,” the phrase “E7 implies the key of A minor” has two different meanings. According to the conventions above, that is sort of correct, in that the key of A minor is the relative minor of the key of C. But A minor is also A Aeolian mode, and I took that to mean someone was saying the E7 chord implies the A Aeolian mode is in use, when I knew that Malaguena uses the E Phrygian mode, not the A Aeolian mode. So it all depends on whether you are speaking with technically proper, but non-intuitive “key” terminology, or in more practical and intuitive modal terminology.

It gets worse. I don’t hear or see an E7 chord in the opening phrase of Malaguena. The 3rd note of the melody is D, and it is played over E and B notes. So that can be taken as an E7 chord. But notice that the 3rd of the chord is not written. When I play this melody on a guitar with full chords, that D is played as part of a G chord, simply by marching bar chords up the neck. Gypsy flamenco guitar music is clearly the inspiration for the Malaguena piano piece. Here are some relevant quotes from Wikipedia:

quote:

---

…the Phrygian mode is an important part of the flamenco sound.

---

quote:

---

Phrygian or harmonic Phrygian, which has a raised third (the so-called “gypsy” scale).

---

So we are all right. Malaguena is E Phrygian mode in the key of C, which can also be referred to as the key of A minor. And that should be as clear as mud to anyone with any sense.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 November 2006 at 11:14 AM.]

According to the technically correct key signature convention (key of C), these would be III, IV, V.

If you take the other technically correct conventional alternative and call it the key of A minor, those chords would be V, VI, VII.

However, if some ignorant fool like me was oblivious to that convention, and wrote the music out in the key of E (because that's where he hears the tone center), those chords would be I, I#, II#.

And if you are familiar with the Phrygian scale and think in terms of the E Phrygian mode, those chords would be I, II, III of the mode scale.

The first two technically correct methods are fine for written music (I think I would go with the A minor alternative). The third (key of E) method is apparently not conventional, but is not technically incorrect if you are the composer (a composer can write in any key signture he wants - if Lecuona had written in the key of E, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion). It just leads to a more complicated key signature (4 sharps instead of none) and more accidentals. But for improvising on a guitar neck, I find the last method more intuitive and simpler.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 November 2006 at 12:09 PM.]

"of numbering the chord progression E, F and G in Malaguena. There are four possibilities.
According to the technically correct key signature convention (key of C), these would be III, IV, V."

In my book the III chord is always a minor unless otherwise noted.So how can it represent E

"If you take the other technically correct conventional alternative and call it the key of A minor, those chords would be V, VI, VII."

Again the VI and VII chords will always be minor and 1/2 dim. respectivley in my book.However, like I said previously I don't know squat about this.Maybe in your minor key these are major chords.

"However, if some ignorant fool like me was oblivious to that convention, and wrote the music out in the key of E (because that's where he hears the tone center), those chords would be I, I#, II#."

Again I would take the II# chord to be a minor if this were on a chart. Wouldn't it be best to say I, I#, I###

"And if you are familiar with the Phrygian scale and think in terms of the E Phrygian mode, those chords would be I, II, III of the mode scale."

How can a scale have any chords in it.It is single notes.

[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 30 November 2006 at 09:23 PM.]

You seem to be saying that each degree of a scale is “always” associated with either a major or minor chord. I have never understood that concept. In the key of C, the second degree of the scale, D, could be used as the root of either a D major or D minor chord, depending on the song. When people play chords up the major scale, they generally play Dm, so I guess one could think of the second degree chord usually being IIm or ii. But there are plenty of songs in C where the D major chord is used, for example before a V chord turn around. So to me a chord with the second note of the scale as the root cannot be assumed to be either minor or major, and so the mminor must be specified as IIm or ii. The original post in this thread asked specifically about the chord progression E, F, G. Those are all major chords (otherwise he would have said Em, Fm, or Gm), and the post mentioned the song Malaguena, in which those major chords are used. So regardless of which of the four possible methods we use to number those chords, why would anyone think they are minor chords? I think this should clear up most of your questions. When I give a chord number, just as with letters, it means the major chord unless it has an m. I don’t know what book you are taking your rules from, but I never saw any kind of number system notation that didn’t clearly denote minor chords either with an m, or with small letters.

quote:

---

"And if you are familiar with the Phrygian scale and think in terms of the E Phrygian mode, those chords would be I, II, III of the mode scale."
How can a scale have any chords in it.It is single notes.

---

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association