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Author
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Topic: 10" Speakers for Steel?
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Aaron Schiff
Member From: Cedaredge, CO, USA
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posted 15 December 2004 06:56 AM
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I haven't progressed beyond my Fender Dual Pro into a 40 watt tube amp and three 12 inch speakers, so please bear with me. In the years that I have been around steel guitar, it is obvious that a 15" speaker is the standard. I constantly hear that the larger speaker is required to adequately reproduce the sound of the low frequency sounds. I also play bass and while I prefer the "thump" of a 15" speaker for bass, the tonal articulation necessary for fast arpeggios and lead lines is best reproduced with 10 inch speakers. I have spent quite a bit of time talking with guitar amp techs (I don't know any steel guitar amp techs) and studying slew rates, damping factors and transient intermodulation distortion and I still can't come to a conclusion. If double stops and triple stops on a bass require 10 inch speakers for best articulation and the sound not to be muddy, why not for steel guitar? Has anybody tried a 4x10, or heaven forbid, an 8x10 speaker cab for steel guitar? |
Bill Crook
Member From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance
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posted 15 December 2004 08:06 AM
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Just my humble opinion..........Unless you are useing the C6th neck, I think a single 12 works very well in a small venue. If It's a large venue, then use a pair of 12's. For larger (outdoor,etc,etc,) stuff,use a single 15 incher. If more punch is needed, I would suggest useing a mike,in front of the 12 incher and let the sound/mixerboard do the major work for you. Most of the stuff I do is with a "Nashville 400" head, a DD-3 delay unit and a "Peavey" 112E cab. If I need a larger sound, I use a "Profex II" and other stuff in a rackmount SKB box with two "112E" cabs. The power-amp in the SKB box is just a RA-100 Stero amp. I think a lot of the "Pros" are going back to the smaller amps,(as per the "Peavey 112)as todays electronics and EQ units are far better than they were a few years ago. Just my opinion....
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http://home.comcast.net/~crookwf/ http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/crookwf/my_photos |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 15 December 2004 09:00 AM
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It's all in the "voicing" of the speakers. Smaller speakers are more efficient (louder) with the highs and high-mids, and bigger speakers are more efficient with the low-mids and lows. Basses and steels are different animals entirely. My understanding of basses is that 15s or 18s are really needed to project that chest-thumping bass beyond the front of the audience. But the articulation of the pick and string noise that helps separate notes comes through better with smaller speakers. A whole bank of smaller speakers can begin to make up for the poor efficiency on the lows. But are eight or ten small speakers any less expensive or bulky than a few big speakers? The ideal seems to be several 10s and one or two 15s or 18s together.Steel guitar is something else entirely. These are the most solid body of any guitar. There is not even a joint separating the neck from the body. The steel guitar is a one piece neck-body (the slab we call a neck is really just a raised platform on top of the body to mount the painted fretboard. Because of this, the steel is over rich in highs and high-mids. Theoretically you could voice an amp to cut back on the highs and high-mids, and boost the low-mids and lows. That seems to be what Peavey wisely did with the NV112. However, most amps are not voiced that way. In that case, a 15" speaker corrects this problem, because it has poor efficiency for the highs and high-mids, and good efficiency for the low-mids and lows. Thus, to most steelers a 15" speaker just sounds better - less shrill on the highs, fuller on the lows, with the mids balanced pretty good. It has nothing directly to do with how much air is moved. Two 12s or eight 10s may be as loud or louder than a single 15, but the voicing will be different. For example, I play Twins, Duals or Super Twin heads into either 12s or 15s. For the 12s my EQ settings will be something like Treble 2, mid 5, bass 10. For 15s the settings are Treble 3, mids 8, bass 4. The combination of the mid scoop built into these amps, and the less efficiency for the mids of the 15 causes me to actually have to boost the mids a little with the 15 (Fender amps don't have linear EQ, so the difference between 5 and 8 is not very much, compared to the difference between 2 and 3). But even with the skewed EQ for the 12s, the sound is not the same. The highs do cut through a little better (and a minority of steelers prefer them for that), but the mids seem tight and not as expansive and smooth as with the 15s. And with the 12s the lows just don't have the same lushness. It's a case of matching the voice of the speakers to the voices of the amp and guitar. A good experiment is to take a Fender Vibrolux and play a steel through the stock 10s, then unplug the internal 10s and connect one or two 12s, then try one or two 15s. Even with twiddling the EQ knobs, most people will think the 10s are too shrill, the 12s are a passable compromise, but the 15s sound the best. If you plug in a full range PA speaker, that will sound terrible. A case can be made that the 12s cut through the mix better in a live group. Usually there is plenty of room to turn up the treble and mids with a 15 to accomplish the same thing. But the 15 is more versatile, because in a smaller quieter group, or for solo steel, the 15 can get a lushness in the lows that the 12s can't match. The history of guitar amps is interesting. In the '50s all the best guitar amps had 15" speakers (Fender Pro, Standell, etc.) This helped the new solid-body guitars and the low powered amps get good strong lows when needed. The Fender Twin was the first high-powered amp to use two 12s instead of a single 15 (hence its name). About that same time electric basses replaced standup basses, and the drums and whole group simply played louder. Lead and rythm guitars found they needed smaller speakers to get the highs and mids to cut through the mix. From that time on they used 12s or 10s. Steelers, for the reasons discussed above, stuck with the 15" speaker. It all makes sense. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 December 2004 at 09:18 AM.] |
Scott Appleton
Member From: Half Moon Bay, California, USA
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posted 15 December 2004 09:03 AM
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I once used a "Eden" 4 10 bass system for a recording session with a lexicon reverb. The tone was great. I would not like to carry that rig arround with me for gigs though. ------------------
Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 + JBL D130 |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 16 December 2004 06:04 PM
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Put simply, bass and steel are quite different. Speakers don't work nearly as hard playing steel as they do playing bass, due to the frequencies involved. The 10's work good in a sealed cabinet (if you've got at least 4 of 'em!), but then it's as heavy, and larger, than most steel amps! (Having more than you'll ever need is a pain when you have to lug it around all the time.)My advice would be to not try to "out-think" the famous guys who are doing this for a living! (Which is what you're doing now!)  So...it's 10's for bass and 15's for steel. |
Aaron Schiff
Member From: Cedaredge, CO, USA
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posted 17 December 2004 06:51 AM
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Thanks for the comments, guys. Actually, I play bass through a 15. I hate moving a 90 to 100 lb 4x10 bass cab. Other than bass, where the frequency is so low, I don't pick either guitar or steel fast enough to create a note separation problem with a 15" speaker. In fact if I can get the extra money together, some day I'll probably sell my 2x12 cab and buy a single 15 for both guitar and steel. I was just wondering if anyone had tried multiple smaller speakers for steel and if there were any advantages. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 17 December 2004 07:22 AM
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I use 12" speakers for steel with no problems. Plenty of other guys that play and record for a living use 12's these days. I get plenty of usable low end with a 2/ 12" cab. With advances in cab and speaker design most all the info posted about amplification on this thread is no longer applicable. For a look at what is going on in the world of small, light and better sounding:
http://www.acousticimg.com/flash-index.html ------------------
Bob
intonation help
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John Bresler
Member From: Medford, Oregon
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posted 17 December 2004 07:44 AM
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The late Danny Shields used to play through a Super-reverb with 4 10's and sounded great. Danny would have sounded good through any amp, tho.My point is that even tho Danny sounded good with the Super-reverb, you're still looking at 86 lbs. and you can get more and better, in my opinion, with a newer rig like a Webb, Peavey, or the new Fender amp and less weight. |
Allan Thompson
Member From: Scotland.
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posted 17 December 2004 09:02 AM
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Check with Al Brisco, I`m sure Al said he was using an Evans amp with a single 10 inch speaker. |
Karl Oberlander
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 17 December 2004 12:51 PM
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I've used a Super Reverb with 4-10's but they tend to distort rather easily (in a nice way though) when turned up. Even with the Healy mods and modded to take 6550's they still break up too much for my taste in steel. But it sounds great! with a tele or a strat for blues/rock.Now I have a Roland JC-120 head with a pair of JBL K-120 12's and that sounds right on. Smooth with a little reverb and very clear in the mids and highs. Kobe ------------------
Gibson D-8 Console Grande - Stringmaster T-8 - Alkire EHarp D-10
Fender Super Reverb
kobe@austin.rr.com
http://home.austin.rr.com/kobeco
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Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 17 December 2004 10:34 PM
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One of my favorite speaker cabinets is a THD with 2X10" speakers (THD Longhorns, similar to Celestions), and a JBL 12" E120. The 10s definitely add to the overall sound, and the cab has more bottom end than any 2X12 or single 15" cab I have ever played through. |
Henry Nagle
Member From: Santa Rosa, California
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posted 17 December 2004 11:28 PM
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I used a friend's Peavey "Classic 50" one night. It's a 4x10 50 watt amp. Looks like an old Bassman. It sounded really good! |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 18 December 2004 11:08 AM
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Way back in the old days, a Fender Super Reverb 4-10's was a great Steel and lead guitar amp.
Really cut through. I thought though they were too shrill.
Along with my Fender Twin, I liked my Fender Dual Showman all with JBL's, which to me had the pure round tone I liked......al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ | |
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