Well, you can always tell when a thread has been beaten into the ground....a ridiculous photo from me, followed by tongue & cheek humor from Jody. It's pretty much formula.

At any rate, this is a good time to mention something that I have announced several times in the past on the No Peddlers section.

Anyone who is in, or comes to NYC, feel free to contact me. You can try, play, and compare just about any guitar that I have. There have been about a half dozen instances where people who were on the fence about which steel to buy, or guitarists interested in playing steel, were able to make a decision based upon the experience of trying them out. You can compare a pre war Rick to a pre war Gibson to a pre war Harmos (we haven't marched off to Iraq yet). Want to compare a Tricone to a Benoit to a Melobro? Be my guest.

As far as giving away what I don't need, or selling my posessions off real cheap, I find no compelling reason on this entire thread to do anything of the sort. And if we didn't have BTO, I'd order a BLT.

Wake up and smell the catbox....Goodnight Mrs. Calabash,wherever you are.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 02 February 2003 at 07:07 PM.]

If it's pedal steel guitars we're talking about, I personally don't believe older is better, just cooler. But if it's "cool" we're after, nothing is cooler than any guitar played well. The cool of that out shines any push pull, herringbone, figured maple top, pre -war, pre-CBS, (add your favorite here), whatever. Of all the stuff I own, I only have one "classic" a Gibson J-45 made in 1966. It's sweet, sure but not any better than my '80s vintage Martin acoustic.

I guess it would be nice to hoard fine old stuff but for me, I can only afford to keep fresh strings on ONE pedal steel (and it's a S12U) plus that's all I have time to for at this juncture. I have more electric guitars than anything else (4). I find it kind of embarassing that I generally have to pick the one with the newest strings when I do a gig.

Bill

By the logic underlying this thread, the only instrument I should be permitted to own is a player piano.

You can't go far wrong trusting the free market system.
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HagFan

[This message was edited by Ron Page on 03 February 2003 at 08:10 AM.]

Seriously, I am sure there are wealthy collectors who don't play at all who squirel away killer instruments (which are then never played). But all of the collectors I know do play to some degree (some are phenominal musicians). Even my fellow Seattlite Paul Allen (who has a monster collection) plays decent guitar.
I have way more steels than I need, and some might consider me a 'collector' but I regularly play all of them. For instance, I have a dobro, a great National tricone (purchased from Paul Warnik for a very fair price), and a new Weissenborn type guitar. All of them are potentially collectable, but I have them because they sound completely different, and each has a place in the studio.

I am really glad there are people like Paul Warnik or Herb Steiner collecting instruments, but also making instruments available to working players for a good price. Most of the collectors are like that. There's always something that they 'need' to add to their collection and are usually willing to part with pieces to buy the holy grail.

In terms of making good instruments available for young players, the last thing you would want to do is give a 'collectable' to a young player. He or she needs to have a decent working instrument that they can modify to suit their needs. A bunch of forum members helped get over a dozen steels in the hands of Sacred Steel young players over the last two years. Had we recieved a 'collectable' instrument we would have sold it and used to money to buy working instruments.

An example of a massive collection of instruments put to great use is the collection at the Experience Music Project in Seattle. Anybody can go through the exibits and hear the instruments played by masters (on recording). For example, Greg Leizs spend a couple days in Seattle recording some amazing sounding Nationals, dobros and lap steels. I'm glad those instruments aren't sitting in a bar somewhere, but are available for everybody to listen to.

Let's pretend that there is a person who started a small business, that grew beyond his or her wildest dreams and within 5 years was bought by a large corporation for half a billion dollars. This person is now relatively young and retired, with 500 million dollars to play with.

This person, who is NOT a musician, decides 2 things/ 1- to build a mansion, and 2- to decorate it entirely with what he or she considers the most beautiful object in the world- pedal steel guitars. (S)He sets out buying thousands of them to line all the walls of the mansion.

Let's say (s)he buys all new steels made by such companies as Carter, MSA and Sierra, who can turn them out in quantity. No problem. It only means that John and Ann, or Reece, or Tony at Sierra make more money. A win-win situation for all concerned.

But suppose this person decided that (s)he only wants Emmons push pulls, and proceeds to by every one that's for sale anywhere in the world. Then, frustrated about not having enough, he starts offering some really big bucks, say 50 or 100 thousand dollars to anybody that will sell him theirs. Pretty soon a lot of lucky players who bought these years ago will sell them at huge profits, and then the word will get out that an Emmons push pull is worth that kind of money.

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE PLAYERS LIKE US? What happens to the average player who decides that (s)he really likes push pulls and wants to play one?

I consider instruments to be tools for the making of music, and the music is the end, rather than the instrument. I don't have a problem with people who [u]use[/u] those tools collecting them, and I don't have a problem with collectors who buy new instruments that are currently being manufactured, because they are not depriving anybody of them, only causing the companies to make more.

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WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE PLAYERS LIKE US? What happens to the average player who decides that (s)he really likes push pulls and wants to play one?

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First of all, Mike, your hyperbole about a mega-millionaire cornering the world on PP's is a totally unrealistic and ridiculous scenario. But let's take a big leap and say it exists in the real world.

Is anyone kept from owning a steel guitar? No. Is anyone kept from learning on a good instrument? No. Is anyone prevented from entering the workplace and making a living as a steel guitarist? No. All that person has to do is be satisfied with perfectly good and available substitution products.

Do we live in a world where everyone gets what they want? Do we live in a world where people have a right to get whatever they want? Do we live in a world where those who have non-essential luxuries are obligated to part with them so that other folks can indulge their fantasies?

Someone can choose to be happy with the options available to them and avail themselves of what they are ABLE to obtain. Or someone can choose to feel deprived because their fantasy remains unfulfilled, and resentful of those "pigs" who deny them what they want.

Of course, this same person could also say, "darn, I should have bought one when I had the chance." Or he could say, "well, I guess I'll have to search harder to find one... this collector couldn't have found ALL of them."

Or he could even say, "well heck, nobody is stopping me from being a steel player and playing gigs. There are plenty of great steel guitars available and I'm sure I can find one that will do the job for me."

Or he could point his finger and say... "There, that RICH guy! He's the one causing my discontent."

It's the "Blame Game" all over again. It's never anyone's personal responsibility, never anyone's regret they didn't act when they could have, or missed an opportunity. Or decided they wanted something after the marketplace made that something unavailable. It's whining about not having a toy that someone else on the schoolyard has.

We're not talking food, clothing, medicine and shelter here. We're talking about unique non-essential items for which there are plenty of available substitutes. I didn't hold to it when I couldn't afford the guitars I wanted, and I don't hold to it now that I can afford the guitars I want.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

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your hyperbole about a mega-millionaire cornering the world on PP's is a totally unrealistic and ridiculous scenario.

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True, as far as PPs go, but not so unrealistic when it comes to DiAngelico guitars or Pre CBS Fenders. I've seen strats from the early 60's with $12-15,000 price tags, and 50's vintage Les Pauls that sold for over $20,000.

There are lots of decent affordable instruments floating around. Enough so that nobody who wants one need be deprived, but only a finite number of choice vintage pieces, and I say these should be in the hands of people who play them, or at least available at reasonable prices.

Oh well, I'm still a sovereign citizen, I bought 'em, I play 'em, and I'm keeping 'em. So there....Only my $.02 worth and with inflation going up shortly, you might should oughta take it.

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 04 February 2003 at 03:53 PM.]

In fact, I'm sitting here wondering why I ever wasted time reading and replying to this stuff. What you're talking about us "agreeing to disagree" upon is like agreeing to disagree about whether or not we should return Europe to its pre-WW1 borders.

You're talking about a fantasy world in which the market decisions are made not by how much money someone is willing to pay for an instrument, but by how "deserving" the musician "wanting" the instrument is.

The former method, how much money someone is willing to pay, is much more quantifiable and just.

Let's say a philanthropist buys a bunch of old Strats and Les Pauls with the noble mission of distributing them to "deserving" musicians. What criteria will be used for determining "deserving?" Who will make the choices as to which musicians among the "deserving" will get one? Surely there will be those who disagree with his choices. That would be worth a call to an attorney, don't ya think? Not getting one, though you're "deserving" could be actionable.

Perhaps a committee could be formed. Or are there more old Strats and Les Pauls than there are "deserving" musicians? That would make it easier, right? Every "deserving" musician gets a guitar, and the surplus can be returned back to the collectors.

By another committee, of course.

I'm sure you could find an attorney who could make a case that owning a rare guitar is a constitutional right. That way, the government could confiscate the rare guitars and the redistribution of them could open up a world of federal employment. Of course, paid for by the tax money of those who just had their guitars confiscated.

Wait! What about the rare guns that just got confiscated? Hey, I'm a good shot, and I certainly "deserve" that original and unfired First Generation Colt Single Action Army 45. Who do I contact?

After the "guitars" issue is dealt with, we could start on "violins," before getting to the real meat of the problem, paintings by Rembrandt, Monet, Picasso, etc. et. al.

DAMN, this is a waste of time!!! But at least I made the decision myself to do this. I'm not blaming the Forum.

Incidentally, I've given away... for free... nice old instruments. I gave an old Rick bakelite to a fella who told me he needed something to play. I felt sorry for him. Then I heard he sold it. My, didn't THAT make me feel good. But hey, I made the decision to give it, and it's no longer mine after that.

Here's another story. A few years ago, I sold a 1952 Martin OOO-21 to a local singer, Dan Del Santo. He loved the guitar, and I sold it to him for $500, basically a give-away price. Hey, he wanted it. Of course, he bitched because there was a crack in the side he didn't notice when he first played it. I only asked that if he wanted to part with it, I get the first shot at it since I never really wanted to part with it in the first place.

A couple years later he got his ass in a crack again and said he needed to sell the guitar, and since he said he'd give me the first shot at it, he called me. He wanted $1500! I told him I'd give him $1250 for the horn and he took it. But not first reminding me that he could have gotten a lot more for it. I told him "gee Dan, that's exactly what I recall NOT SAYING TO YOU... but thanks for the great favor you've done me."

I still have the guitar. It's going in my casket with me.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 February 2003 at 12:49 PM.]

The situation exists. It's not going to change. It couldn't be changed even if we all agreed that it should be, and I never advocated changing it. I merely expressed my dislike of it.

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I still have the guitar. It's going in my casket with me.

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Collectors of fine instruments perform a real service in terms not only of preserving the instruments themselves, but also sharing information that they have gathered which helps us all understand and enjoy them.

I too shake my head in amazement about some of the prices one sees in "Vintage Guitars", but would it really be such a bad thing if our instrument could attract that kind of interest? If Mike's mythical Emmons collector was paying that kind of bread for the guitars, there would be a thriving "re-issue" market, maybe a (heaven forbid) "pre-distressed" model, and hordes of good imitations. Maybe a "Herb Steiner Signature Model Wraparound"! Our many fine builders would be better remunerated for their efforts, and still be able to market reasonably priced instruments. And some of our heroes might be able to sell their instruments and afford the sort of dignified retirement that a career as a professional musician rarely affords.

Would that it were so!

[This message was edited by Bob Blair on 03 February 2003 at 04:00 PM.]

I remember when Teles from the 50s and 60s were piled three deep at music stores on 48th St, NYC. No one wanted them.

Now the same beatup planks are desireable and unaffordable. Weird...

Let me say this about what Bob said. Paul Warnik loves and collects Bigsby steel guitars, as does Mike Black, Chas Smith and a few others. I do too.

But, unlike the guys who just buy the guitars, Paul went to the Bigsby company and bought all of Paul Bigsby's original steel guitar parts inventory. With this inventory he supplied guys with old guitars the necessary parts to refurbish their old axes. He also realized that he had enough parts left over to create, with his partner Dave Peterson, around 8 or 9 replica Bigsby triple neck guitars. These guitars went to professional players, among them Ry Cooder, Lee Jeffries, Bill Dye, Billy Wilson, Junior Brown, and yours truly. Ry Cooder plays his on his new album, discussed elsewhere on the forum.

This friend of mine, through his love of the instrument, resurrected not only his own guitars and the guitars of others, but ADDED to the inventory of this type of guitar in the world. Did he make some bucks... I'm sure he did, but probably not as much as he should have made, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. This is a person who doesn't just increase his bottom line by speculation on market values of instruments. This is someone who ADDS value to the world.

Thank God for guys who find the and restore the instruments we buy and play, like Mike Cass. Personally, I came upon Emmons guitar #8, serial number 1164008W, a wood neck D-10. It was a basket case, DOA, a bucket of parts and a trashed body. I bought the carcass for $500 from someone who thought it was "in excellent condition." It's a long story but ultimately I sent it to Mike Cass who did a number on it and it's now almost showroom condition. And I now have way over 2 grand in this guitar. But, there is now a restored Emmons #8 where before there was a pile of junk.

We love these things, and we are not pigs.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 February 2003 at 04:55 PM.]

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This person is now relatively young and retired, with 500 million dollars to play with.

This person, who is NOT a musician,

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The late Scott Chinery was all that....no need to pretend.

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WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE PLAYERS LIKE US?

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Lusting after the MSA Millenium....well, you said it yourself in past threads

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Paul went to the Bigsby company and bought all of Paul Bigsby's original steel guitar parts inventory. With this inventory he supplied guys with old guitars the necessary parts to refurbish their old axes. ...This is someone who ADDS value to the world.
.....Thank God for guys who find the and restore the instruments we buy and play, like Mike Cass. We love these things, and we are not pigs.

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I agree. This is not what I'm talking about.

I am talking about those collectors WHO DON'T PLAY, who are grabbing up vintage Fenders and Gibsons and Martin acoustics to use as some sort of trophies, who are driving the prices up and preventing people like us from obtaining them.

Herb, you DESERVE to have a fine collection of instruments. You're musicianship warrants it.

John, of the 36 instruments I own, I've gigged or recorded with 33 of them. And I only bought 2 of them about 2 weeks ago, and will be recording with both of them soon. that leaves only my 1957 National Res-0-Phonic unused, and I'm willing to sell it to somebody who will play it.

Do I need all these guitars? No. But my recordings are better because I have AND USE them. They all sound different, and give me a wide palette of colors to choose from when I record.

Thanks for saying my musicianship entitles me to a collection. Actually, I think that my hard work and my making correct decisions entitles me to a collection.

Why? Because a friend of mine, a successful businessman who happens to not be a very good player, has some very nice instruments. And I'm not about to tell him he doesn't "deserve" the guitars he owns because someone who can speed-pick faster than he with more sophisticated notes "should" own his guitars. His playing might not be like some hotshot's, but he loves the guitars as much as he can, and if he can afford them, more power to him.

He's not a pig either, and if someone thinks he is, it speaks more about the opinionated one than it does of my friend.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

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I'm not depriving anybody of the chance to own a rare vintage Squire tele.

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However the bottom line is, there are many people who are holding onto instruments of little or no collectable value that they do not play or need which could be bringing someone the same joy of playing that we all share if these instruments were in circulation instead of sitting for years under the bed or on the top shelf of the closet collecting dust.
Plus, I'll never be convinced that an instrument, as an inanimate object, is of more value than the music that could be made with it and the joy it can bring to the player and listeners.
I'd rather hear Jerry Byrd play one song on a $99 student model steel guitar than to stand and stare at a collection of priceless, rare steels.

The pros are: a) if the guitars are different, you have several 'sounds' to choose from. If you can afford it, why not? Who wouldn't want a variety of different woods, pickups, bright or mellow sounds, etc., etc.? Therefore, a collection is indispensable to any guitarist who's serious about playing. b) If the collection contains older guitars, these instruments are preserved and can be passed on to future generations of players who are curious about what earlier instruments felt or sounded like. These same collectors can provide parts or buy/sell/trade with other collectors just to keep the older instruments in circulation. In other words, collecting can be a hobby and a business.

The cons are: a) in the case of pedal steels, space is required if one wants to keep them on display and ready to play. The more steels you have, the more space you will need (unless you're content to leave most of them in their cases). I have only one steel and it gets in my way at times, so I wouldn't think of buying a second one even if I could afford it. b) the problem with collections of any kind is that you can't take them with you when you die. You will never know what will happen to some of your most prized possessions after you're gone. All the fuss over that rare gem in the collection could go to waste if it ends up in the hands of someone who doesn't appreciate it.

That being said, collectors are not 'pigs'. There is a difference between collectors and hoarders. A hoarder is worse than a pig. Buying up a bunch of goodies and stashing them away so they never see the light of day is just downright insane. I'm a model railroader, and while I have what could be a small 'collection' of locomotives, they all take turns running on my layout. Years ago I met a fellow modeler who hoards locomotives - he has a huge stash and leaves most of them to sit in their boxes. He has no layout, so they will never see any action. To me, that is just plain greed, and I hope he loses sleep wondering what's going to happen to his hoard after he dies. I've never heard of anyone hoarding guitars, but in this world I guess almost anything is possible.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, what we have here is a classic case of envy. What really makes me angry is that people, men especially, tend to measure each other's worth on the basis of what they own. In other words, he who dies with the most toys, wins. But when push comes to shove, it's not what you've got that matters, but who you are.

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What if Stevie Wonder's folks had not been able to provide him with a piano, a chromatic harmonica and music lessons when he was a kid?
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Ray Charles would have had more gigs?

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Man have you ever seen Ray Charles's wife?
Neither has he!
Ok back to the regularly scheduled program.......