Whoever played steel made Jerry Garcia sound like Lloyd Green.I played STONED OUT OF MY GOURD for over two DECADES and never had those kind of intonation problems!

Didn't those people LISTEN to the tracks they recorded? Almost everything I've heard from that genre/era SUX! I got a CD in the mail a couple years ago featuring one of these 'steel players' latest efforts and he's no better now than he was then! I don't usually throw CDs away but the world is better off w/less of his 'art' out there for others to be repulsed by! PuhLEEZE!!!

Who would want to be sitting around telling others, 'Yeah, I play one of those' when that $#!+ comes on the radio???

Besides, it is a proven fact that most people that play "stoned" don't know whether they have intonation problems or not.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

YOU need not listen.

PS- interestingly enough, looks like the solo (maybe not the same you are referring to) is posted in the tab section here: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/002373.html

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 21 May 2005 at 11:49 AM.]

But STILL! Just listen to it and tell me you disagree.

And yes, the topic might be more appropiately titled "Why Pedal Steel Has A Bad Reputation".

And who else, what other group would fall all over themselves to excuse or justify this ummm; what shall I call it...
BAD PLAYING!

When tabbing, how do you signify a bar placement halfway between frets 9 and 10?

[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 21 May 2005 at 12:28 PM.]

One is that I grabbed a Ray Price CD on my way out the door last weekend. I listened to several classic BE cuts, and when I got to "The Other Woman" I heard some pretty severe intonation problems. One never knows how these cuts end up jiggled and juggled, AND it was WAY before Mr E started tuning totally straight up. If it is as he himself said, that "some of the early things sounded out to him." I heard it so plainly, and it was out so far in the record mix, that it's one I can say "listen to it yourself" about and don't mind saying that I easily enough heard what I heard.

There was a Ricky Scaggs cut he did that got canned, as the story goes because the intonation was so far off ( what RS wanted to hear), re recorded note for note twice by two different top steel players, and then FINALLY snuck in on a Live in London album by one of them. (note for note) I'll bet Mr E spit his coffee all over his dashboard of is Caddy when he heard that one.

As far as the steel guitar not being taken seriously, from the beginning it has been a "Stupid Sound". Cartoons, from Bugs Bunny and Mighty Mouse to Adult Swim, and Spongebob, it's a comedic layer.

I happened to like "Seeds and Stems", as well as "The Trouble with Lovin Today". Listening to them now is a bit less of a "what planet was I on" thing than listening to the Grateful Dead's rambling hour long LSD filtered "Jams".

A good case in point was localy here, where the local Metro Recycling deal comissioned a band to sing a HORRIBLE country sounding parody of a country singer. I forget who it was, either Harley, Pete, or Larry, heard the cut and refused to provide dressing for such a hack job. I know they found somebody, and they didn't call me, thankfully. Somebody did step up and do it however...

When you thing "Stupid" when watching a movie like Sling Blade, on comes a fatgirl band with a whiny steel guitar singing about life in the trailer..

Out of the tunnel comes "Oddball" spouting Steel Guitar laced "All for the Love of Sunshine" while mowing down germans.

Guys passing joints between harleys brings out "Don't Bogart that Joint" (Deeer,, Deeerr,,, deerr... (intro)..)

Often it's a sound effect that's come to reflect the Stupid, Redneck, Western Step 'n Fetch-it Trailer Trash, Beer Drinking, Dope Growing, and now Meth Lab Engineers that a lot of us have become or have tacetly supported over the years.

Occaisonally as in Bill Stafford's masterfull "Going Home" soundtrack, you have the OPPOSITE. A great, ET, credible, non-twangy, MUSICAL set of selections picked up by a heroin-addict newmoney scumbag and his degenerate cohorts to make a movie about male prostitues with narcolepsy travelling through Idaho, but that's a rare occurrance..

Add to that, and as if that weren't enough, you've got a whole bunch of people that "Tune the Beats out of their Thirds", like we used to try to do stoned while trying to play fuzz tone guitar, and when we straightened up we heard how it didn't match with ANY other instrument.. Steeped in the Garage Engineering Foundations of Our Instrument, attended by too much coffee, too may crosstops, and enough beer to keep them from bouncing off the walls...

Play these instruments with these tunings against any good guitar player, violin/fiddler, and add a piano, and you've got a bunch of people that are looking at eachother while these out of tune contraptions are "weaving their magic", shaking their heads, and then straightening up with a "fine with me" nod of approval when the steel player looks at them like dog that's dropped a newspaper on the porch...

Considering what the instrument has represented since it's inception, and that all the aforementioned bespeaks poor intonation to begin with being the equivalend of a dozen Musical Saws, Kazoos, and slide whistles, it's not that other musicians "hate" us, they just find it hard to take the instrument seriously when the most touted "tunin' chart" puts the instrument 28 Cents out of tune with itself....

No. It's not that they "hate it", it has just fit so well with the things that most of our "Global Test Judiciary" look down apon when they look to the West..

If tomorrow, all steel guitars stopped this stupid tuning baroque/hermaphroditic/rubegoldbergation of the twelve note scale, and played only classical arias, the view of it would still be the same.

On top of all of the above the TOP contract/paid artist of our instrument is an exhuberant young man that stands up, wailing away distorted pentatonic scales in semi-street gang regalia playing gospel tunes, who has now become the "looked down apon" by "the despised".

I'd say it's pretty much become what we've made it...

Not that I'm complaining, it's done alright by me..

Read it now before the evening editing..

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Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

A JI tuned whine.

A whine at fret 9.5.

Is still a whine.

People generally don't like whining.

There is, however, some emotional substance in playing whiny licks and I have to admit I get caught up the fun of playing crying licks in those lonesome country songs. It's fun!

That's usually when my wife or daughter sneaks in and pulls my music room door closed. They have no idea that my intonation was perfect!

Terry

Db

ps
it was kind of tough to try to get that steel track work with other inetruments out of tune.

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

I've played steel for about 35 years and there have always been certain steel sounds I didn't like, and still are. Even the legendary steelers, name any of them, play some things that give me chills from being so mind-bogglingly (is that a word) beautiful, and then in another song they'll do something that makes me say "yech, now that's the sound I don't like".

I think the public is the same way, some like what I hate, whatever.

But I do agree with EJL (imagine that) that the steel has been used for "stupid, white trash, etc." too often. Probably because the steel has been stereotyped as being traditional country for so long, and Hollywood has always sterotyped country people as being "stupid rednecks/hillbillies". I don't see this as being the fault of any country music artists or steelers, unless they knowingly recorded material to sound stupid...

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 21 May 2005 at 08:53 PM.]

I don't know anyone who hates pedal steel, but I live in ignorant, red neck, cow-tipping flyover country. I like it here, and rednecks don't give me any s**t. They may not know art, but they know what they like.

quote:

---

People generally don't like whining.

---

They can't deniy you your choice of headphone mix,
and yet it doesn't come under the heading of "no comments."

Likely eventually that bass part would have been redone in tune,
but your steel would be good to go with the majority of the insturments.

Most people can tell out of tune, but just don't know what it is they are hearing, it just sorta grates on them for an unknown reason.

I am sure Commander Cody did that 1st album
as a demo with whom ever he could get to play,
and
some mindless RECORD COMPANY EXEC DECIDED TO PUT IT OUT
RATHER THAN RECORD THE STEEL OR OTHER PARTS AGAIN.
Save money and get product... sound familiar?

So we can't always blame the band for taking the shot at a release.

I remember Seeds and Stems, but would have forgotten about it except for this discussion. At the time, it was a good expression for the genre, and many hippies could relate to the lazy attitude on the steel--but they weren't the only parts out of tune. (As we've heard, you can't be in tune if nobody else is.) Such tunes have become folk songs.

That doesn't mean you have to sacrifice the search for 'perfection.' Pedal steel is evolving along the same path as the piano in its early days; a lot of work went into developing the equal temperament. Beatless thirds (I mean, how can that work? except by jacking up the pedals to compensate) will slowly go by the wayside.

Thus, as our ears are trained, the ears of the public are slowly trained. Good producers and players are part of the evolution of the instrument.

Bugs Bunny riffs will be forgotten in the process; the steel guitar will continue to evolve--may slowly take the place of the string or horn section, and a new appreciation of it will develop, through modern craftsmanship.

In the meantime, 'Cryin' Time' will always be there; it's part of musical history.
There's a place for folk music, stuff that stirs the heart no matter how it's played. And still, the steel will evolve.

p.s. 'Teach Your Children' got my ears; first time I ever wanted to play 'that instrument.' That one high, clear note, an exclamation point near the end, introduced many college students to steel artistry.

It's all musical history. You should hear Bernstein delivering the Norton Lectures on the development of the musical vocabulary.
One thing builds on another, something new comes up.
Charlie Two Cents

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 22 May 2005 at 06:23 AM.]

quote:

---

Do steelers do that because they like elevator music?

---

"Play these instruments with these tunings against any good guitar player, violin/fiddler, and add a piano, and you've got a bunch of people that are looking at eachother while these out of tune contraptions are "weaving their magic", shaking their heads, and then straightening up with a "fine with me" nod of approval when the steel player looks at them like dog that's dropped a newspaper on the porch..."

So poetic Eric....give that man a ceegar!
"People generally don't like whine"..i think Terry deserves a ceegar to...Terry i think your wife and daughter are trying to tell you they are a "Closed Door" audence...All you have to do Terry, is jump on that C6th son...and go into a great song like "The shadow of your smile" ...
"Whine"? i just knew there was a reason besides Curly Chalker, that i choose to play C6th....
Marty....my friend you are right on the money, crap is crap!
And Hey Eric...how about..."My dog ate my tuning chart"?

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 22 May 2005 at 11:32 AM.]

And it clicked enough for them to then get much better.
I judge bands more by SECOND albums than by 1st.

If this threaed is any indication...
maybe we need to start a raffle for dates
for Marty's next official banishment...

The prize can be a CD ... in tune!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 May 2005 at 11:30 AM.]

After looking at it all, I'd have to say that our infantile instrument is going through a period of self-inspection, trying to find fault in ourselves in the face of the all but extinction of regular live music. Hell 10-15 year ago I was paving 5-7 days a week, playing music 5-7 nights and had a 21 day run when I did both every day. I didn't have time to put gas in my pickup, or go home inbetween the day and night jobs.

It's brought us from a point where anything, and everything sold to the point where if you don't have a gimmick, a "new idea" for marketing, or a penchant for panhandling, you aren't going to make it. ON TOP of all that, you MUST be in tune, on time, and not being confident that the people you are playing/recording for aren't going to be as easy to please as they were.

It's made me go out and spend 4 thosand bucks on a new guitar, amps, Podxt and clothes, go to Nashville to see what was "really going on", and got me to practicing an hour or two a day if I want my chops up to play current cover tunes. about the time where I can't physically work day and night anymore except friday-saturday with saturday work inbetween.

As far as all the other stuff, I still like Teach your Children, The Wheel, Dire Wolf, Seeds and Stems, Choo-Choo Ch'Boogie, The Other Woman, and I watch Spongebob for the steel guitar. I always will.

It's a positive "being hard on ourselves" from what I can see.

Anything at all can be looked at as a reason to give up though, and that's part, I suppose of the process of community introspection and forward change...

EJL