I try to tell them about players like Buddy and Lloyd, and since most of them are rock and rollers. Paul Franklin and Dire Straits. and they just don't get it. As far as they are concerned, TYC is the penultimate steel guitar redcording and Garcia's ride the greatest steel guitar solo ever recorded.

And I'm an (unmentionable body part) for suggesting otherwise.

not everyone does this..

t

Guys like Garcia, Cage, and Rusty Young are probably responsible for turning more people in the 35-55 age group on to pedal steel than Buddy anyway. Who's better than whom is just a p*ssing contest anyway, IMHO. I'll just bet that Emmons doesn't really care what they think either. His work speaks for itself. If some guitar floggers can't tell the diff, that's THEIR PROBLEM. (once again, IMHO)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 18 July 2005 at 10:38 AM.]

I personally loved Jerry's VERY simple playing. Always musical..

TYC is one of the sweetest sounding pedal steel pieces ever as far as the rock world is concerned IMHO... Does this make JG a great steel guitarist??.. of course not..

As Jim said, He KNEW he wasn't that great. However, Jerry made nice sounding music with the modest ability he DID possess on the steel..

I don't think anyone could have done a better job on THAT particular song, with the meager experience he had, than Jerry.

Jerry KNEW he wasn't a great or even good steel player, but he was a VERY gifted musician/writer, he made GOOD use of the talent he possesed, and I think he outdid himself on at least one song on that old ZB. TYC of course.

We all know if he had to depend on JUST his steel playing,Jerry did NOT have much chance. bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 18 July 2005 at 12:43 PM.]

(I'm not TOO much of a dead listener, but do enjoy some of their studio work.)

I'm sure it wasn't jerry.

[This message was edited by Cody Campbell on 18 July 2005 at 01:10 PM.]

It is trying to do the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results every time.

The fact is that Garcia did do a nice job on TYC, and he did turn a lot of people on the the steel.

Now don't get me wrong, as I think that Jerry Garcia was a good Steel player. I was surprised when I found out that he was the Steeler on "TYC". As a matter of fact, I play the licks that Jerry played and even tabbed out the ending lick and it is posted on the Steel Guitar Tab Website.

I think (INMO) that all they ever listened to (or listen to today)is Rock and Roll. Had they listened to or listen to Classic Country (50's, 60's, 70's) then I think that they might think otherwise. We Steelers know who the greats are.

Gregg

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If it don't have a Steel, it ain't real!

[This message was edited by Gregg Thacker on 18 July 2005 at 02:57 PM.]

quote:

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But these kids rank him above people like Buddy and Lloyd.

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They're kids, Mike, give 'em a break! Their musical world is very small, as probably was ours at that age. I can remember back when kids were saying that Scotty Moore was the best guitar player, Jerry Lee Lewis was the best piano player, and Speedy West was the best steeler!

There are, to me, two ways of judging artists...by style, and by flat-out knowledge and ability. Some have both, but it's quite rare in the grand scheme of things. If someone likes a particular artist's style, you can't reason with them that they're no good. Style is style, and talent is talent, but a good style will outsell a good talent most any day. Why? Because style is what the general population knows, remembers, and relates to, while talent is what artists and critics relate to.

Frankly, we artists and critics are most always outnumbered.

C'est la vie.

I'm actually finding a remarkable amount of interest in my neck of the woods that has been generated lately by Rober Randolph and the like. One of our local NPR radio stations has been playing RR for quite a while now. BUT, over the last 6 months, this station has started to play QUITE a bit of PSG jazz. I can tell you my day starts in a terrific fashion when I'm riding to work and I hear a cut from Buddy's Minors Aloud cd on the radio, or some of the others they've been featuring lately.

But I digress.

The thing I belive a lot of people tend to forget about the Dead and the whole jam band scene, is that it is more of a culture than most can understand. These people worship Jerry and band. Not going to be any converts there. But, I'm one of those people that believes that ANY exposure for this great instrument of ours is welcome, and a lot of these folks are starting to learn what a PSG is.

Me personally, I've always liked the Dead, but never thought Jerry was much of a player. But that TYC solo....that and a few Rusty Young bits got me started down this fretless road.

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Most steel players are initially attracted to it by it's generally sweet, pretty tone. Therefore, most steel players are the type of people who will generally play undistorted, somewhat major key, generally pretty music, most of the time. A very, very few people like Cage, Garcia, Kleinow & Young managed to sneak a teensy little bit of steel playing into rock before the rules of what is correct and incorrect in rock became locked into stone, about 1978, 1979?

However, not enough steel music made it under the bar to reach the critical mass necessary for steel to remain cool and be seen as conforming to the Rock Rules of Nonconformity - the rules about how to rebel in the correct fashion.

Currently, the percentage of steel players playing somewhat sweet, generally pretty music is still way too high for the tiny few who are playing dirty, rebellious, nasty, suicide-inducing & parent-piss-offing steel guitar music to overthrow the Rock Rules of Nonconformity. Which were locked into stone about, say, 1978? 1979?

When, IF, the Robert Randolph clones ever start to outnumber the Buddy Emmons clones, steel guitar will reach what is referred to as a tipping point, at which point steel guitar will then be seen as conforming to the Rock Rules of Nonconformity. Which were locked into stone about, oh, say, 1978? 1979?

quote:

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Why DOES Mike Perlowin dsepise JG so?

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I don't despise Jerry Garcia. I despise the fact that these kids think he is the worlds greatest steel player while ignoring our instrument's true virtuosos.

I despise the comments like "Well if this Lloyd Green guy is so good, why didn't CSN&Y use him?"

I actually admire Garcia very much for both his actual guitar playing and for his exploration of America's musical heritage. I think overall he did the world a service.

quote:

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"Yeah, I think Jerry Garcia played steel as good as he sang.."

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Yes, Cody, that was also JG on the studio take of Dire Wolf - you will note that he never played anything all that difficult but he had a talent for hearing what "fit" and getting it in there. There's a reason that they quite making studio records for a long time after Workingman's Dead and American Beauty - the overdubbing that it took to get things "studio perfect" was not exactly thrilling to endure.

I don't think Mike was dissing Garcia as much as saying that that there's life after TYC. These days most of the "Dead Thing" is hero worship. Swallowing camels and straining at gnats is a required course if you want to be one of the "in crowd".

We've done this before. Let's let it go.

The first four notes of "Bird Song" are the first four notes of the E9 neck. I'm surprised at least Pete didn't catch that.
I use the lick as a "cross over" excersize. Try it/

Kind of like my tuning preference, it doesn't have anything to do with what other people like, it's about me.

I'm sometimes flattered when people that are really cool like or do the same things I do, but that's not the point.

I don't have the attention span for such flattery to be very meaningful.

What was the question?

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 18 July 2005 at 09:06 PM.]

quote:

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"Well if this Lloyd Green guy is so good, why didn't CSN&Y use him?"

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they may have been "so so" but they sure helped take a bunch of us BB KING wannabe's and Clapton Clones and turn us into Loyd and Buddy wannabe's...

It was about the song..it always is..still today..

Eric Clapton is GOD..so thay all said...He won that award for a million years in a row for best Guitar player on the planet..but if a semi sort of pro wanted to increase his guitar playing knowledge he went to see Joe Pass...not Eric..

Give Jerry his due...he earned it...

So I asked my kid.." Do you want an Ice Cream Cone or a Steak Dinner"...

Jerry, Rusty, Sneaky Pete, Buddy Cage, Al Perkins, John Call, Dan Dugmore ....and a few more..

They turned it all upside down, broke all the rules...and because of those guys many of us are here..now...today...and then got exposed to the likes of Buddy, Loyd, Paul etc...

This is a good thing...

Maybe at the next Steel show somewhere in downtown USA someone will play TYC instead of playing "Way to Survive"..

who knows, maybe I will !
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 July 2005 at 04:43 AM.]

First of all, let's face it, in the late 60's and early seventies rock music had brought in the PSG on several fronts. From the country-rock of Poco and the Burritos to the sweet steel heard on the Carpenters' song "Top of the World." Linda Rondstat and Rita Coolidge had used the instrument to enhance their music. Jimmy Page found a place for it on Zeppelin's "Your Time Is Gonna Come." Page wasn't using it to further the mystique of the instruement , but because he thought it fit. Apparently so did CSNY when they added it to "Teach Your Children." I suppose they could have called Speedy, Buddy, or Lloyd but chose to let Jerry Garcia enhance the song with his take on steel. No crime there and we bought the records by the truckloads.

Rusty Young is no more or less a product of the steel masters than any of us who sat in front of the record player and tried to figure out what they were hearing on some of those old country records. He just did it real well and decided to make a living with the instrument. Listen to the first and second Poco albums and you hear Rusty taking the instrument from the sweetness of "First Love", to the cowboy steel in "Consequently So Long", to the raw energy that the steel can produce in "El Tonto..." And if you want to hear what IMHO is one of the best solos to ever coome out of a steel then listen to his break in "Bad Weather" from the fourth album. Even in his live performances he made the steel a showcase rather than an instrument to be blended in discreetly.

quote:

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"Well if this Lloyd Green guy is so good, why didn't CSN&Y use him?"

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I'd reply, "I dunno, the Byrds used him..."