------------------
Rick
Kline Cadillac U-12, Nashville 112 and 1000, Hilton Volume Pedal

quote:

---

I'm studying mostly the players I'm influenced by - Sneaky, Al Perkins, Robert Randolph, Chuck Campbell...

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Do you not think that they both studied and were influenced by "country players"? Probably well over 90% of everything that's ever been played on pedal steel has been done by "country players".

Ignore them if you choose.

Myself, I try to learn from everyone and every style.

[This message was edited by b0b on 16 December 2006 at 10:09 AM.]

No doubt RR can do a fine job on anything country as well.

[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 12 December 2006 at 02:17 PM.]

quote: Franklin - "This is probably a better way to sum up my comment. I meant a player who doesn'tt take the time to master PSG techniques, by increments, is more apt to be convinced that the tones they hear comes from a guitar, pickup, or amplifier change. I agree ALL of those elements are important and I can certainly hear the differences when I play them. I completely agree with TC's latest post. I urge all students to learn by playing into the instrument, Don't let it play you."

I am certainly a student -

My guitar is playing me - as I am just re-learning to play (after 20 odd years away) and this new one compared to my first PSG, cost about 4 times as much, is 4 time prettier, and I'm scared of it because of that.
My tone is realitvely awful. I have two CDs that I play alog with trying to capture some style, and whenever I can "tone" from playing that I found I appreciate. One is "timeless" and one is Toby Keith's christmas CD (thanks to the season we are now in). I don't know who's playing on the Keith CD but I know there is a difference in the way stuff sounds. I also find that by moving my bar grip, or my picking position as relates to the pick-up, and the pressure of both picking and bar movement, I can repeat, to an extent, the kinds of style I hear on both albums -but I have to do something different to do more then that. Tone also may require me messing with the knobs on my elctronic gizmos, and to a certain extent all of the above. Is that not really where all this leads -

To answer the original question -there may be very subtile differences in "tone" between any guitar made today and another made the next day, or way back, by anyone. But to get it to do what you want, you have to find a point at which the guitar and you agree on what sound we are making. So, you and other really good players will sound like yourselves on anything short of a bread box with rubber bands, - eventually. I will sound like myself (or the bread box) for quite awile. We will all choose eventually a guitar that agrees with us more often then it does not, and that agreement enables tone?

[This message was edited by David Alden on 12 December 2006 at 03:01 PM.]

Your tone is only subjective. It changes with the slightest variant. Your on a session and the engineer tweaks your tone-what you hear in the phones sounds nothing like he hears in the studio monitors. The size and makeup of the room you are playing in totally changes your tone and you have no control over it. All you can do is to try to dial in something close. You may be getting that magic tone you consider the holy grail at home, but as soon as you go set up at a gig you have to go searching for it again. This is true with all manner of electric guitars, not just pedal steel.

Also what you hear right at your sound source as tone might be totally different to someone who is 10 or 20 or 30 feet in front of you. Why be bothered.

I get my instrument that I am playing whether it be an acoustic or a steel or an underarm guitar sounding as good as I can perceive within the conditions I find myself at the moment. If the surroundings are a problem--say the drummer is too loud-I compensate for it. If the room has a bass resonance going on-I tweak the low end and vice versa for situations that affect the upper spectrum of sound.

Your tone needs to be flexible for whatever conditions you find yourself in. It never sounds the same no matter how much you want it to. If you become a tone geek then your musical thought is in conflict, because you usually never like what you hear and pretty soon you start to use the tone thing as an excuse to make up for your musical failings.

Therefore, a Sho-Bud from 1969 has got to have differences from a 1981 Sho-Bud if not for the different changers, cabinet shapes, etc. They're both Sho-Buds, but come on they were built 12 years apart. A lot of components had changed in that time, so they have got to sound at least a little different.

An experienced player can make a $99 Yamaha sound good just like they can make a '42 D-45 sound good. But my bet is that the Martin is gonna sound better in the same set of hands. (FWIW there also may be 1999 D-45 that beats the pre war one).

The point of my ramblings is that I think the tone of the instrument is directly proportional to the care and expertise that went into building it. Each one is different. And then it's up to the player to harnass that and make it come to life. No matter if they play a G run or the intro to Layla.

------------------
Kyle Everson
Sho-Bud Pro-II
Fender Twin Reverb
Goodrich 120

The basic damping of the string's resonance is
from body and metal elements.

Different combinations cause greater or lesser sustain
in various bandwidths relative to
the initial string resonances.

Some guitars interact more than others in
small ways with that strings movement.
But not nearly as much as an acoustic instrument.

After that the magnetic push and pull of the pickup
and it's induction causes DIFFERENT elements of
that initial string and body interaction,
to generate an electrical potential.

That is the 'instrument's electrical output'
as a 'sound potential'.
it is NOT sound, it is voltage variations.

IF you send this varying voltage into a tube directly like a Black Box,
you add and subtract various harmonic bands.
This is relative to the pickup's magnetic strength,
and type, and number of windings.
All these change this Electrical Potential.

If you go to a pot pedal that eletrical/harmonic relationship changes
as the pedal changes it's resistance values.
This is why they are less in favor these days.

If you go to a light pedal or Hilton style
it essentially transmits the pickups transmited bands of frequencies,
with few additions or subtractions.

Into an amp this electrical potential
of this transmited freqency band grouping
is THEN MODIFIED again.

EVERYTHING after the string is a change
of the strings resonances.
Yes you change the 'tonal balance',
but when the string vibration is inducted by the pickup,
it is ALREADY different than the guitar's resonant sound.

The pickup type and design has a greater
change on that transmission of inducted
electrical potential of string vibration.

This variation is ALSO different at different heights
from the strings also since you move the
magnetic fields effect zone relative to string movement.

Amps and all other devices change the signal again.

"Your Personal Sound" is a linear compendium of ALL these effects.

BUT CONSIDER... the source of it all.
Your personal attack of that string.

Who came first the chicken
or the egg.

Your playing technique exciting that string
and maintaining it's decaying resonance patterns,

or the pickup, amp and effects you use to transmit it's signal
till it reimmerges as "sound".

If you don't do it right at the source
all after is for naught.
End of story.

And NO ONE in these threads has said anything
that can convince me otherwise.
And several, including Reece,
have reinforced this train of logical thought.

Garbage in, garbage out;
no matter how well you dress it up.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 December 2006 at 04:23 AM.]

I second Ed on this one. Right on the mark.

Jim,

Sorry to hear about your hand. That's a reality we all may face one day. I hope you recover soon.

Thanks for your response.

I limited what I would learn on the dobro. You limit your vocabulary on the pedal steel, how is that any different?

I don't know if this pertains to you?

The bar control of blues/rock lap steel playing is not the same technique as a player who also masters country music. Since you posted you have no interest in learning Country steel, I'll respond to the differences in left hand techicue which effects the tone of the guitar.

Most guitarists who play lap steel are talking about playing delta blues and rock licks. They have not developed the different techniques required to play the music of Sol, Byrd, Boggs, and Helms. This vocabuary is much more difficult to master.

The bar technique used to successfully pull off blues licks doesn't require perfection. The nuance of non dampened strings behind the bar, a slight string rattle, along with bar inaccuracy while moving from one fret to the next is actually a preference.

Inaccuracy of bar movement, or as I call it, "the bottleneck bar movement" doesn't create a good tone in Country, Jazz, Classical, or any other style of pedal steel endeavors.

Because of the angle of the physical left arm position, a guitarists slide playing from fret to fret starts out straight, then develops a slight angle between fret to fret movement before resolving straight at the desired fret. (As a visual exageration their bar movement looks more like a fish out of water)

The perfect straight bar line in slide movements is the technique most pedal steel players spend years perfecting. Keeping the bar perfectly straight is not easily mastered. Gaining that talent requires a study of players like Byrd and Emmons.

BTW, all of the players you mentioned have been inspired listening and learning from Buddy Emmons. You may want to add him to your list.

I never mentioned Country music to you.

The "historical knowledge" of the instrument and its players is an advantage, not a disadvantage and many of its Country players play Jazz , Blues, Rock, etc.

Unless you can speak for Segovia, I don't see your point. Had Segovia wanted to play electric guitar he certainly would have done the research on Christian's and everyone elses electric playing to ensure his mastery of the instrument and its music.

Check out "Suite Steel" listen to Buddy Emmons play "Yesterday". Maybe you can, but I've never heard a B bender capture that kind of feel. Having a feel for the pedals requires much more than just pressing pedals in time.

Back on topic,
The pedal steel is a fretless instrument. Its notes are "Always" manipulated by the Bar hand. The guitars frets allows guitarists to strike every string across the entire fretboard without using left hand manipulation. That's impossible on pedal steel. Although anyones expertise with the electric guitar is undeniable, Any assumption that electric guitar knowledge transfers completely to this instrument is false.

The pedal steel has a singing quality unlike any other instrument. Master all of its techniques and your heart and soul can speak through its strings.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 13 December 2006 at 07:50 AM.]

quote:

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One time, it's "you must be an player with "x" years of experience to have an opinion"

---

If you check my (unedited) post, what I actually said was...

quote:

---

those who've spent their entire lives doing nothing but playing pedal steel just might know a little more about it than someone who's far less experienced.

---

[deleted]

I have great respect for both Leo Fender and Paul Bigsby, but I wouldn't value their opinions on pedal steel guitar as much as I would someone like Buddy Emmons.

Do you think that's wrong?

Sorry, I just feel that if you want to learn to play baseball, you don't ask the guy that makes the bat.

[This message was edited by b0b on 16 December 2006 at 09:31 AM.]

Russ

[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 13 December 2006 at 09:27 AM.]

We're talking about were the tone comes from. I guess I have to say it again, as Bobbe has done as well - it comes from the instrument. Everything else is icing.

Paul, I don't want to waste space talking about influences and stylistic points in this tone thread, but I'd be happy to talk (in a good way) about it much more extensively off-board. We also have some mutual friends in the Tele world.

FWIW I've worn my vinyl copy of Suite Steel out.

Briefly...somehow my "listening preferences" have been interpreted here as my "limited influences". It would take a while to discuss, hence this isn't the place. But I have mentioned several times that the traditional tone and style of pedal steel is not where I'm going - so (and this is a REALY short version) the more slide-oriented things you mention ARE more in my style, which (and again I fully admit on *pedal* steel I'm certainly not what I would consider a skilled or fully-develped player, although I truly do comprehend the tonal sources, regardless of some opinions) would be something of a cross between Sneaky, Clarence White, and David Lindley...probably with a little Josh Graves and Steve Howe thrown in the mix as well. But much of what I play sounds more "Stringbender" than "normal" steel - I'm trying to adapt who I am and what I've played for dcades to a different instrument...and the B6 tuning/copedent is a great fit - for me.

I would hope that would be both interesting and welcomed by players as something a little different. If not, that's OK - it's all a matter of style and taste, both of which are individual things.

Oh - and tone is in the instrument...

;-)

(I had to - I really did...smile you guys...)

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 13 December 2006 at 09:26 PM.]

Regardless of where it generates or how you define it, the quest for good tone (or good sound - again different terms to different people) is a never ending process. Every player I've ever met, learned from, or taught has thought "there's thing one other little thing I want to get out of my sound" and the game is on. "Perfect" tone is a snipehunt - but it's fun to chase!

IMO when a player says he has the perfect tone - that's when something's wrong!

The value of most of our comments...$.02

Having the following inspiration from a true master of our instrument...

quote:

---

The pedal steel has a singing quality unlike any other instrument. Master all of its techniques and your heart and soul can speak through its strings.

---

Thank you Paul.

If this thread made any one player think about
his hands in relation to his 'sound",
then it was worthwhile.

For those that may or may not have 'got it'.
Well it's your choice,
the information has been provided,
and eminently reliable sources have
agreed to it's validity.

quote:

---

If this thread made any one player think about his hands in relation to his 'sound", then it was worthwhile.

---

My opening question was: “Is it possible to consistently identify a sound/tone “signature” which is unique and exclusive to any specific name brand of pedal steel guitar”?

My 2nd question was: “We all know different guitars of the same brand have a sound somewhat different, but if there are those who believe a “signature” truly exists and is inherent in any name brand guitar, would they be suggesting the characteristics of sound/tone are consistent within controllable and distinguishable parameters, no matter who is playing the guitar”?

My last question was: Those who believe this to be true would then quite possibly be of the opinion owning a specific name brand guitar provides them and inherent and distinguishable tone…………can this be true?

For those who answered yes to any of these questions, it would be fair to say they are convinced they have the ability to identify a specific guitar when hearing it, even if they can’t see the guitar being played alongside other guitars for comparison, all using the same amp, tuning, volume pedal and cords, and new strings!

After all, IF inherent tone truly exists, there is no need for one to see the guitar being played in order to identify it. I would also assume those who answered yes are convinced that if blindfolded they could simply lay their hands on numerous other brand name guitars, strum them, and consistently identify a specific guitar. In addition they would have the ability to hear anyone else playing a guitar and consistently identify a specific brand no matter what the proficiency of the one playing it. An inherent tone is exactly as implied.... so no matter what, and inherent sound/tone would surely be present and consistent......IF it truly exists!

As I mentioned earlier, this discussion has the possibility of coming down to a yes or no answer. For those who say no, our position is clear and have nothing to prove as a result, however those who’s answer is yes, there is only one way to prove they have the ability to do so. Much to my surprise no one has come forward to positively say they can identify a specific brand of guitar consistently………therefore what I believe to be a long standing myth continues……..

No one ever implied that you could identify every guitar blindfolded. But some are more distinct than others.

Thay ALL have inherent tone...it's the differences between them that vary.

And there's no argument at all that the hands can change the sound produced to varying degrees. What they can't do is change the basic platform. But it IS fun to try to make one guitar sound like another.

I think that most of the time I could identify a Stratocaster in a recording.

Now, consider that both of these guys played Stratocasters:

Buddy Holly and Jimmie Hendrix

Safe to say that their styles were not similar. They sound like individuals. They also sound like they're playing Stratocasters.

There is plenty of room for both arguments.

I think that guitars can sound very different from each other. More importantly, I find that I play much, much better when I am comfortable with the tone of a guitar. I want a steel guitar that allows me to be the best me that I can be.

The personality (and skill) of the player is far and away the most important element, but certainly even the best players feel more comfortable with a guitar whose tone suits their style.

I also believe that a really good player should be able to play any guitar and manipulate it's best tonal potential.

I am not a very experienced steel guitarist and I often feel at the mercy of my instrument (or the room I'm playing in). However, I am an experienced 6 string guitarist and although I prefer a good sounding guitar I feel confident that I can make good music with most any guitar or tone. That is because I have the confidence and experience to play to the sound that I'm stuck with, or hopefully blessed with . I also believe that most of this confidence is in the picking hand. That is where dynamics begin and dynamics are the most important part of making any tone sound really good.

Sorry to be so long winded.

[This message was edited by Henry Nagle on 15 December 2006 at 07:30 PM.]

A metal Rick or an ash Stringmaster tend to be recognizable to me, as well as tele's and usually stock strats.

I both cases the players also tend to
accentuate the sound of the instrument to
make it's possible tone go in that direction.

Some players like Brent Mason can take it an entirely different direction too, from song to song.

In the case of earlier classic lap-steels
early Emmons and Sho-buds,
part of the sound was the pickups style and number of windings.

This pick-up part of the vibration reproduction chain,
was part of the reason these instruments had 'a sound'.
The pickup style WAS done to accentuate certain aspects of the instrument.

I have little doubts that with the same player,
swaping a classic Emmons pickup of say 1968,
and the same year Bud pup would to some extent invert the sounds from the amp.
Not to say the PP would then sound like a Bud.

But say swap them on a classic MSA. Interesting.

In my somewhat limited expirence with ALL the
PSGs available,
I found more differences in feel, and pickup variation,
than actual insturment tone.

But I have gotten my hands on quite a few, and always listened a bit with no amp if possible.

I believe I could put a Truetone, wound to my preference,
on most any PSG made these days,
and get several different sounds to my liking,
and pretty much get the same sounds on any of them.

I would opt for the instrument that feels and plays best.
And then try to 'pick' the best sound I can out if it.

Of course I take for granted that:
at noon, in a rain storm
I will get a different sound than
2 am on that same dried out evening.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 December 2006 at 08:35 PM.]

Simply, I think in *some* cases you can tell the difference in tone of guitars blindfolded under identical conditions.

But there are some types of guitars with such a "generic" sound that you can't tell them apart. And as Paul mentioned, many builders and players are aiming for a singular, accepted by commercial producers, "pedal steel tone"...not spcific, individual tones that have been the benchmark of the music industry for decades (and still are in the 6-string world).

And either way, I believe the basic tone is in the instrument - the ones that have nearly identical tone are made to "sound" different through the style of the player, which includes attack, bar manipulation, etc.

Some agree with that description...some don't. Neither is wrong, it's just a different description of the same result.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 December 2006 at 11:21 PM.]

I must respectfully say, I believe most would consider those two statements as contradictory.

In your earlier posts I felt it was obvious you were one of the few, if not the only one saying "yes",.....you could tell the difference. In your later posts after many additional great and enlightening comments by others, I believe you moderated your opinion.

It now appears to me (when reading your latest post) that you are attempting to "straddle the fence", which means the emphatic "no" you stated, could be intrepreted as a possible "no" but you could be saying "yes".

It makes perfect sense. Some guitars have a distinctive tone that is recognizable. Some are made to sound alike.

Paul, your question is unanswerable, which is your point, I'm sure - I'm not going to yank out recorded examples of different guitars in identical conditions. It's absurd to even ask.

As far as your studio answer, it's totally irrelevant, as I already said skilled players CAN twist the sound of a guitar to get it to sound somehwat like another, and buried in a song you'll not always detect a difference. But it doesn't change the INHERENT tone of the instrument WITHOUT *trying* to manipulate it.

But thank you for proving the point - "I listen to the tone of my tele and postioned my right hand to match the same tonality." - you had to overcome the inherent tone by manipulation. Thank you for being so clear and stating that the inhererent tone ofthe instrument required you to change your playing.

Jimmie - you're way over the line. I'm discussing thread topics and you are not. Discontinue this practice please, it's a violation of forum rules.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 16 December 2006 at 06:39 AM.]

I enjoy those topics that keep coming up and learn something every time.

[This message was edited by John Lockney on 16 December 2006 at 07:18 AM.]