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It seems particularly reductive to say country music is "X Y and Z" and punk rock is "E F and G", when,( and I'm not sure what folks here are calling punk rock,) they really have WAY more in common than perhaps either group of pigeonholers would like to admit. In fact, most of your historical punk rocker ended up making some sort of country record later in their careers, because country and ska/reggae were some of the earliest roots of the punk movement.

Were Joe Strummer and Johnny Cash here, they could, I'm sure, set everyone straight.

In the land of Mr. Randolph, though, I've been impressed by the amount of energy he puts out, but it's not my particular thing either--the corny lyrics are a little bothersome, and I'll listen to Sly Stone, simply because they're better SONGS. BUT, his contribution to steel guitar as well as to continued musical dialogue isn't something that could or should be up for discussion...or perhaps it should, and that's why we're discussing it

Ah well, my eight pence.

happy holidays

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[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 18 December 2006 at 12:53 PM.]

I'll agree with Aaron in that there IS alot of common ground, especially idealisticly betwixt punk and country, But expensive and complex instruments are not one of them. I also dont think one or even a dozen players can change the trad face of the instrumentation for those genres. I dont think Jan Hammer doing a blazing Keytar solo in a country song is suddenly cause every country band to have a Keytar player. I dont think seeing RR play the blues on a PSG is gonna cause all the rock , punk and metalheads to seek it out. If you are looking for something ot reviatlize the steel and bring it to the masses (Im not) then I think your best hope lies in the alt-country stuff. Alot of young kids digging that stuff.

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The "kids" in punk and metal both spend incredible amounts of money on equipment, Punk had the "anti-chops" thing going for a long time, but the tide has shifted. It's still "thrash and crash", but they do it with good equipment - Marshalls, Soldanos, Bogner Uberschalls, and metric tons of Mesa amp/PRS guitar pairings. A basic steel to them is pocket change compared to what they spend on what they use now - when my oldest was 16 and playing in a 100% punk band, he saved up his own money and bought a new Les Paul for $1600 plus case and tax...cash. Go to a show at The Key Club, Whiskey, Roxy when young local bands are playing and you'll see everything from vintage gear to boutique stuff...but rarely any budget stuff. Absolutely no junk guitars, and no Crate, Peavey, Ampeg (except bass amps) or other budget amps.

Believe me, I have dozens of players from 12-20's hanging around my house, and basic steel prices don't even make them blink - I tell them they can get a decent used one for $1500 or so and they're immediately asking how to go about learning to play...at which point the idea dies when they discover what resources are available.

"My point is...there could be a hundred method books on punk pedal steel guitar playing"

No - you see a lot of "playing the guitar" books that cover folk, rock, country, a smattering of jazz...there are many well-rounded methods for learning to play "guitar". Not a particular style, just "guitar". Chords, lead patterns (pockets that I've discussed in the past) and examples of typical tunes in different styles.

Pedal steel really doesn't have generic learning materials - the closest things would be Joe Wright's initial series of videos, but you don't find those on the shelf at Guitar Center or at Borders, and they don't contain any "music" to get a player started. Also, tab is (even with CD's) cheaper plus a player can look through it before buying to ensure it's what he wants.

It's a matter of thinking outside the box - forget all the great players, historical stuff, classic tunes etc...none of that matters to the market I'm talking about. You have to envision yourself like a teenage potential 6-string player who has played nothing, or maybe a little piano, and wants to "play guitar in a band" - assume there are no 6-strings, and the hole needs to be filled with pedal steels and the appropriate material.

If you look at it that way, it's a pretty big hole.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 18 December 2006 at 02:03 PM.]

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[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 18 December 2006 at 02:00 PM.]

But I think it may be possible to promote the instrument more widely by doing some of the things Jim suggests. There are a lot of rootsy-rock-blues-slide kinda guitar players out there who might go for a different approach if they saw an instrument and teaching materials more geared to them and could clearly see real advantages to having pedals over something like a slide guitar. I have two young (20s) guitar playing friends who have started down the steel route in the last year - one lap, one pedal.

I dunno if this type of interest can be expanded, but nobody will ever know if someone doesn't try. I think it would require getting this kind of stuff into a bunch of retail outlets with a strong marketing push in this type of direction behind it. Endorsement from someone like RR might help. Anyway, that seems like a logical place to start, if someone wanted to try it. From there, who knows what other style players might throw in.

btw - I wouldn't lump styles like metal with punk. Very different things, IMO. Lots of metal players are very serious musicians. Malmsteen, Uli Jon Roth and many others have formidable chops. There's a not-so-cottage industry around instructional materials for metalheads, from beginner to very advanced. I had a laugh when I first saw this one in a Guitar Player ad from the early-mid 80s:
http://www.metalmethod.com/

But they're still there, and lots more besides.

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[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 18 December 2006 at 02:46 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 18 December 2006 at 02:54 PM.]

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I think young kids are smart enough, have the money and have the skills to play the PSG. With all the video game skills they have, I think they could fairly quickly master the steel skills.

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Regards, Craig

-Id buy it. Man, I'd love to learn how to rock on this thing, but if i gotta buy a UNiversal to even try it out its gonna be a while. I dont know how people can afford this instrument. If my pops hadnt died and left me enough money to buy my Nashville LTD I'd still be wondering what its like to touch one (course I'd rather have pops back).

I'd bet my bottom dollar there aren't two readers/players here who could listen to the audio alone and identify a pedal steel guitar as the instrument. If a PSG is to sound like a Strat, then we're done.

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HagFan

1)In reference to "limited to pentatonics". If you think it's easy to play something compelling with just 5 notes, try it some time. I've heard BB King play a complete break with the same 3 notes, and it's beautiful.

2)In reference to "defiling the instrument". I have never heard a six stringer dis another player for defiling the guitar. At least not in the last forty years. An instrument is a tool to make music. I may not like it, but the more players the more we all grow.

Randy or anyone else is there any instructional material out there for E9th rock/blues? I know Tyack tore it up on Blackened Toast and said that was all E9th. Now if only he'd stoop to giving me a lesson

1- buy a 6 string lap steel, and

2- listen to Fred McDowell and learn his style of slide playing.

Eventually, you'll be able to adapt the style to the pedal steel guitar and integrate the use of pedals, but the first step is to get back to the roots of rock and blues slide guitar, and nobody does it better that McDowell.

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My web site

I think the best lesson a student can learn is how to teach themself.

How this for getting off topic!

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 18 December 2006 at 08:42 PM.]

Now there is stuff that pedals and knee levers and extra strings would add to what you can get on lap steel, especially in terms of minor chords and jazz chords. While you are learning to get all you can out of lap steel, save up your money and someday get a used uni or extended E9 ($1500-$2,000). Be sure to get something that is easy to make changes on (an all-pull from the last 20 years). You can try a Sacred Steel E7 setup like RR and Chuck Campbell use (you could even do a 10-string or even 8-sring pedal version - forget 10-string E9). SS E7 is like a glorified lap steel, and that is the way they play it - very little pedal work. Or you can stay with an E9/B6 uni or extended E9, which have more possibilities outside of pentatonic stuff.

Yeah, you're on your own with no instruction material. But how many metal and punk guitar players learned from instruction materials? I'm thinking damn few. And I'm thinking none of the players I named above learned from instruction material. Tune to an open E tuning of some kind (6- or 8-string lap, or 8-12 string pedal) and learn to play what you want on it. Forget all the existing instructional material, unless you can find some blues lap steel instruction from somebody like Bob Brozman. The Chuck Campbell stuff might be useful - I haven't seen it. Joe Wright's stuff assumes you have a uni, and seems to be mostly for country pickers who already know how to play and want to learn rock/blues on uni - maybe I'm wrong, but that's my impression from the stuff I got of his.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 18 December 2006 at 08:43 PM.]

Second, I never said it was a "rock" course that was needed - I said it was a "general" course not pointed to any specific genre, just like most beginner guitar books. To answer the anticipated question - no, it would not be as deep and thorough in coverage of what most people consider steel playing to be...but that is just the point. You have to start somewhere, so why not a "tune it up" chapter, basic layout of how things work, and then tab stuff that covers a tune or two in a variety of styles...including some really not explored, like metal or hard rock. Again, this is like a general overview book/CD to get a *taste* of what can be done - then the player can choose to pursue what he/she likes, just as with guitar.

"1- buy a 6 string lap steel, and

2- listen to Fred McDowell and learn his style of slide playing."

Mike, respectfully - that's a great example of not having any idea what hard rock or metal is like. It's about as blues-based as Tiptoe Thru the Tulips. Completely the wrong approach...a good one for blues of classic rock, but for Hardcore, Metal, or punk the mark is missed completely.

Back to the "general introduction course":

Of course a Sacred Steel section would not be deadly accurate in an E9 tuning (which is probably logical since most steels on the planet are set up that way) but you CAN play some of the Sacred Steel with E9 or C6 - at least get close. That's the idea.

It's not an idea for a full "be a pro stel player in 10 easy steps" course, it's an idea for a beginner's introduction to playing "pedal steel guitar". Not "rock pedal steel guitar", or "country steel guitar" - just "pedal steel guitar" in a fairly generic fashion..then let the PLAYER choose the ultimate direction.

As said, nobody will know until it's tried, and nobody's tried.

Steve H, I understand it may be different with the kids where you are in Tennessee. But the same "beginner" system could get new players started, and if they wanted to go country, they have lots of resources. If they want to go rock, at least they've had a starting point not rooted in a particular style.

this subject isn't just limited to the 20-somethings around my house...it's talked about in Sam Ash, Guitar Center, MI, studios...there IS interest...but as noted, the resources just aren't there.

And it will take someone with both the qualifications ANd interest to do it, then try to market it.

That's why I think it makes the most sense for a steel manufacturer to do it as a package - basic guitar with a generic instruction course. It wouldn't require trying o get a book published through normal channels.

I really think it's quite viable, especially in larger cities. And with RR's popularity rising, the time is right to exploit an untapped market.

"btw - I wouldn't lump styles like metal with punk. Very different things, IMO. Lots of metal players are very serious musicians. Malmsteen, Uli Jon Roth and many others have formidable chops."

The chops thing is true, but there are very few players with chops like that - and many crossovers between punk and metal bands today (not true 10 years ago). "Hardcore" is sort of a cross between the two (in very generalized terms) - but the point is those two genres nowadays encompass a lot of the same crowd/players.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 18 December 2006 at 08:43 PM.]

If Carter made a 'BLUES ROCK Starter'
At $500 or the current $600 there would be a market no doubt.

Basically a strumable copedent that did the majority of rock and blues licks well,
with less cromatic notes top fall down over.
I think theye would sell mare than we believe.

The Carter Starter is geared to creating 'classic steelers', read Nashville country.
And be able to play the basic repetoire of country licks.
Sure it canm get tinto other styles ONECE you have learned how.

But it's not like a idiot proof, blues rock copedent.

Basically a variation on a Sacred Steel tuning
would bring in a lot of kids wanting to play the music THEY like.
Not be pushed into a music their FATHERS liked.

BUT ANY foot in the door / chink in the armour is progress.
RR has provided the door,
now we should consider getting a shoe in the jam,
before it closes.

It seems to me that instructional material to learn to rock out on the steel is an oxymoron. Sure you need to learn the basics and those techniques are available in lots of print material combined with a lot of practice.

But - if you wanted to include power chord riffs and various other rock things along with country, pop and other styles, look into past threads and you'll find probably 50 names of players who have played in rock bands, mixed rock tunes into country, or played in jambands that do all sorts of styles. Guys like Joe Goldmark, Doug Livingston and others are certainly capable...heck, so is b0b, and Mike Perlowin is capable of both playing clips and writing sections if he was interested (I don't think he is, though). I don't think there's any shortage of people who could play parts - ask for participants and you'd likely have a waiting list.

The alternate copedent idea is interesting as well - something more accessible for many types of music, but especially more rock-oriented, might be a revolutionary approach to the whole thing.

"It seems to me that instructional material to learn to rock out on the steel is an oxymoron."

No more than it is on 6-string, or bass, or piano, or drums...alll of which have beginning courses that are either rooted in rock or more generic or general in nature and no locked into any single style .

This is really a matter of thinking outside the box...and the box is the music that 90% of steel playing consists of currently. Most of the negatives seem to be rooted in the idea that it's more "not right" than "not possible".

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 18 December 2006 at 10:53 PM.]

I've got friends who have to check with their managers before doing anything musical, even if it's sitting in on bass or something.

[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 19 December 2006 at 06:18 AM.]

Randy I will look for those minor 5 and 4's against the 1 (what does "against" mean in this context?)

Mike-I have an old fender champion 6 string lap and was in a rock band for a few months and was able to do quite well with it till the band fell apart (rehab for the singer). It was tuned to open E, the power chords were right there, pick harmonics were possible, sounded HUGE with some distortion thru a halfstack and I could actually rip some nice bluesy licks on the thing, took solos, the whole nine. For some odd reason i can pick up a dobro and do about the same tho with considerable more effort and clam-ed notes. But i cannot translate this to the PSG because as David said there are some funky strings in the way there on an E9th and I cant make heads or tails of how the pedals are used in those licks from the lap steel.

I still play in punk and metal bands. I dont really have the desire to bring the steel into that (tho lap was quite awesome and I could see doing that again). I just want to be able to play the PSG well and enjoy myself doing it and why not explore rock/blues even metal on it? Thought there might be some instruction that aint UNI. Guess I will have to figure it out on my own, which is okay, that can be fun and very rewarding as well.

As a newb, Ive often wondered about RR, why not a lap steel instead of PSG? I dont see alot of pedal action in his playing (I could be wrong and probably am.) A lap would allow him to be more mobile and engage the audience more. Maybe the oddity of a PSG as opposed to the lap which more people have seen ala Lindley, Gilmour and others, is the attraction for the audience? I dont think it could be denied that part of the attraction to RR from the mass public IS the rarity of the instrument in the context of that music?

quote:

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I never said it was a "rock" course that was needed - I said it was a "general" course not pointed to any specific genre, just like most beginner guitar books.

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[This message was edited by b0b on 19 December 2006 at 09:30 AM.]

Granted, i'm an 8 stringer, and the 10 string still blows my mind, but having the capacity to change tuning and copedent is what made things work for me--perhaps that's something to consider, Ben?

I feel the same way about Randolph, though--there ARE "pedal licks" in the show, but not nearly as many as I'd like, and, again, I like a more song oriented show, rather than the jam...

The "PSG course for new rockers" is a great idea, IMO. If you provide a listing of stuff they could listen to, to see what CAN be done, it certainly would help push them--any time you set up a PSG in a non country context, there will be a group of folks coming up to look...never fails here, any way.

Random thoughts on the many topics in this thread for today...

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