Jim suggested a "universal" beginner's course for the pedal steel.

So, what does a beginner need to learn?
The notes of the tuning, the basic operation of the pedals and levers, what they do and why. You would need to learn to use both hands and feet together, smoothly while playing. You would need to learn to hold the bar properly, and be able to move it around on the guitar, accurately. You would have to know how to use your picks, and how to be able to only play the notes you want to hear: blocking. You would need to learn some scales, both single note scales and harmonized scales. Learning the chords would help learn the harmonized scales.

You would need to learn some music theory, what it means when someone refers to the I, IV and V chords, for example. You would need to see how this theory relates to the music you want to learn to play. You really can't play any music whitout this, IMHO.

Actually, I believe that someone could learn all these things from Winnie Winston's book, or Scotty's "Deluxe Method" book.

So, the instructional material is there already, the real problem is that a person that wants to learn this must realise that it WILL take practice, and they may never be the best player in world, no matter how hard that they try.

Maybe the real issue is: some just don't have the talent that others have, and some are not willing to work harder to compensate for their lack of natural ability.

Jim, there isn't an easy way to learn the pedal steel. If you want to learn to play rock, or blues, first learn the basics above, then learn how to play some pentatonic scale stuff, and will will be able to shock and amaze most of the average guitar players out there. If you don't give up out of frustration, in a couple of years, you might just agree with me.

[This message was edited by Bill Moore on 19 December 2006 at 10:42 AM.]

The following You Tube video may have been posted on the Forum in the past, but it's worth another look, to see, in the words of Mark Knopfler, "the best pedal steel player in the world-Paul Franklin!" take a ride toward the end of the Dire Straits song, "Walk Of Life."

Click on the link below:
http://tinyurl.com/wenn8

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Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 19 December 2006 at 11:18 AM.]

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As a newb, Ive often wondered about RR, why not a lap steel instead of PSG? I dont see alot of pedal action in his playing

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I think that RR is actually much closer to the sound and style that blues and rock lovers would go for. They're looking for a "sound" and feeling, not technical expertise.

quote:

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Still no Voodoo Chile tho

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Bill, respectfully, you're thinking like a pedal steel player. A kid playing hard rock and power chords needs a different approach to learning. You're also assuming the E9 tuning is the way to go, and as has ben previously discussed it might NO be - a SS variant, especially an 8-string one, might be a far better choice for the hardcore, metal and hard rock players. Again, it's thinking outside the box.

A lot of the "kids" have seen the Winie and Scotty books, and while they do have their place for MOST players, they don't fit everyone. A kid with seven piercings, 9 tats, a girlfriend named "Shade" and a preferance for no-thirds power chords in front of a mosh pit looks at just the pictures in those books and giggles...much less the music. That's not an insult - it's just reality. young rockers DO have an interest in the instrument, but those materials are NOT going to hook them, and as I've said previously they've laready SEEN those, since they are all that's commercially available. And looking at those, they see country all the way and bail out on the idea. And I'm not talking about ME learning steel - we're talking about 13-30 year olds playing much harder, buzzsaw stuff than I do.

They see potential...they fiddle around with mine and get stoked...then look at the resources (I have both those books still, even though I don't play E9 at all) and the immediate reaction is "but those are country books - where's the "regular" stuff?

they're not going to play harmonized scales, or learn scales necessarily (at least how most steelers think ot them) - they're going to play in "pockets", or positions, like on guitar. At least that's what they'll look for. "Red River Valley" isn't the door-opener for them; some variant of "Smoke on Water" (a classic rock tune known by almost all of them, because it was the precursor to most of the rhythm riffs in use by them today) is the ticket for entry.

If you can work with copyrights and toss in "Smells Like Teen Spirit" that's another "hook" almost all of them know, even though it's not "new".

Honestly, there's not a single example in Winnie's or Scotty's books that would interest a hard rock player. I'm not saying some of it might not be *useful* - but if you don't have their interest through relevant examples, you're right where you started.

Which is WHY there's no action now, except among young country players and a few SS players.

I can't stress enough thinking outside the box. some established players will have a hard time with that idea, or resent it, or feel "threatened" that it will undermine the "purity" of pedal steel.

http://www.cartersteelguitars.com/csplayvideos/lagrange.wmv

Well, that's solid proof that it's not the E9 tuning holding one back from playing rock or blues. Time to re-evaluate my thinking with regards to rocking on the ol' E9.

BTW: Seems like the highest paid steel player might like to play at the most highly regarded steel event... and perhaps donate his fee to the Steel Guitar HOF and take the write-off. Just a thought, but someone will have to get it past the manager.

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HagFan

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Mark. The groove on the Dire Straits tune is more country rockabilly. The E9 is fine there. You have a link of a pedal player doing some Led Z, or ZZ Top or Hendrix on E9?

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OK, Bill, I'll grant you that. But if Knopfler told the band during rehearsal that he wanted the feel to be more straight ahead rock, I don't know that Paul would have changed his playing much-if at all. The rest of the band could have sounded more "power chord-like" for lack of a better term, and Paul's playing may not have had much of a country feel-because the direction of the band was more straight ahead rock.

I enjoyed Billy's clip myself-but if there weren't a video portion, and I didn't know better-then I might have thought that he was playing the thing on a Strat with a slide on his finger.

Which brings to mind one of the standard criticisms of RR-why play a 13 string steel guitar that has a bunch of pedals if the same thing could be accomplished on a six string lap steel, or a Strat with a slide on your finger?

I'm not the guy asking that question, because I have heard Robert play some beautiful stuff: backing the Blind Boys of Alabama, and an effort earlier this year on the most recent Carlos Santana album on a track called "Trinity," which also features Kirk Hammett of Metallica. there is no question in my mind that the guy has the chops-but he also has the whole frontman thing going, and it's a lot to bite off and chew.

I think Paul Franklin added a lot to those Dire Straits tours BECAUSE he was playing E9th-it made it SOUND like a pedal steel was in the band. But I don't think that it automatically made one think: Hmmm...Straits sounds really "country-like" with Paul Franklin on board.

The argument for a different copedent for rock playing has its merits-but it seems to me that there are an awful lot of notes-and combinations thereof, on the typical Emmons setup.

The discussion reminds me of those that say that the high bass open G on dobro is only for bluegrass. As I have written here before-I've seen Rob Ickes play Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely?" and later the same evening, The Allman Brothers "Midnight Rider," along with a couple of Gypsy jazz pieces by Django Reinhardt. All in open G-and none of those tunes sounded anything like bluegrass.

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Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 20 December 2006 at 06:58 PM.]

Because it can't - at some point, he uses all that stuff. Not continuously, but there's certainly a very specific point to a 13-string guitar in that tuning with those changes. It's not a random thing - and you can't do the *same* thing on a Strat or lap steel...you can do some of the same type of stuff, but it's not going to be the same.

Why does anyone question RR's choice of guitar/copedent at all? What difference does it make to anyone NOT playing it?

Of course you make an excellent point about the above mentioned masters not restricting themselves.

The vast majority of us are average players at best (and I have a good ways to go before I even make it to that) and would be well-served to come as close as we can to mastering a tuning for which there is copious amounts of information, rather than re-configuring our steels to a radical departure from the norm.

Many players of regular 6-string guitar have never ventured out of standard tuning to DADGAD and the like, and it works just fine for them.

It seems to me that there is plenty going on with E9th, and most anything can be played on it. Obviously, becoming familiar with a tuning that is designed for a certain feel, like C6th for jazz/swing, is an advantage-but it doesn't appear to be an absolute necessity. Remember, it was Lloyd Green who got rid of the C6th neck on his guitar many years ago, and it hasn't seemed to limit him as a player.

Though I have read where Lloyd has said that one has to think more, not less, to limit themselves to one neck and one tuning. But if you already know your way around "the neigborhood," maybe it's easier to remember all the addresses?

Look at the appendix of tunings in Winnie's book. Just about every player has something slightly different from everybody else.

The thing to bear in mind is that today's tunings are the result our instrument's pioneers experimenting and collaborating, and it took them a while to figure it all out, but they got it right. My E9/B6 U-12 which is more or less standard, can handle anything from Debussy to Hendrix.

It's not a matter of being politically correct, it's a matter of practicality.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 21 December 2006 at 10:43 AM.]

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

[This message was edited by b0b on 21 December 2006 at 10:29 AM.]

As a worship leader in my church band, I do a lot of lead singing, on a lot of Contemporary Christian rock songs. The instrument I'm most comfortable on is dobro, but Jerry Douglas or Rob Ickes I'm not. So try as I might, the thing just doesn't jive with a lot of the songs. We used to have a pethora of regular guitar players, but church bands, especially in smaller churches, often have an accordian effect that shrinks when folks move out of the area, etc.

It behooves me to sharpen up my six-string playing to help out the cause. When you think of the dobro as a cousin to pedal steel-it makes you realize that for certain songs-the thing just doesn't fly-so I take it off and put it on its stand. Not to mention the part about singing and trying to play competent dobro at the same time, which is a whole other thread.

But I have managed to utilize it in many songs without everyone in the building thinking that they are now hearing a bluegrass or country gospel song. One of these days, on a Sunday when I'm not in the "frontman" role, I'm going to bring my GFI-but I may not use it on all the songs-since some of the licks I know might sound too much like the cliched country steel licks-and not everyone in the congregation agrees with my love of country music!

Repetitive 8th notes on the rhythm guitar pushing along a solid 2/4 from the bass/drums... YEAH, BABY!!!

That, my friends, is plain old GOOD rock 'n roll. And you can feel the exchange of energy from the mega-huge audience with the band. Back in the 70's, I played in a several huge concert situations like that. It's actually easier to play when you've got thousands of people waving their arms in sync to your music and telling you to GET AFTER IT!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

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"Don't try to invent a new kind of music."

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I understand that comment fits in the context of studio players working in a specific genre. But in general, why not? I don't think everything worthwhile has been invented. Why not try to reinvent new styles of music where PSG has a central role? I think it's infinitely more versatile and interesting than autoharp.

The styles that are now heavily copied were invented sometime. I suppose if we just view music as a short-term cash cow for record companies and their investors, OK. But I think new blood is critical, or the whole thing will just cease to be relevant - that may have already happened. You can't milk a cow forever without repriming the pump every once in a while, so to speak.

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Why does anyone question RR's choice of guitar/copedent at all? What difference does it make to anyone NOT playing it?

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Oh, that's simple. Because everyone has an opinion, and given the "politically correct" mindset nowadays, every opinion is equally valid and to be respected. (At least, that's what a some of us found out a few pages back! )

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But "it" needs to be tailored (dumbed down) to a tuning that a typical 13-year-old with NO music training can understand.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

But the actual rants and wishes of members here may be closer to that number minus the last two zeroes-more like 60. And that obviously isn't going to get it done.

If Paul Franklin could go on the road in the past with a legitmate world class rock band like Dire Straits, with the usual copedent-then I can't imagine that there is any real need-or desire-for steel builders to market a special rock and roll version of a pedal steel guitar.

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Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 21 December 2006 at 03:12 PM.]

I have to agree with Jim Sliff on the Winnie Winston & DeWitt Scott books. I'm enough of a beginner that both books are well-worn, but "Red River Valley" isn't going to float a rocker's boat, and to be effective teaching of any kind has to offer rewards along the way. Like being able to play something recognizable, even if it's the PSG variant of "Gloria". I don't think it's "dumbing down" to adopt good teaching methods.

I'm really not facile enough on PSG to try copedants beyond E9, especially since I can barely survive on E9. But on 6-string there are a bunch of useful tunings beyond standard: drop-D, D-modal, Keef's open G, open G/A/E/D, DADGAD... I'd think someone would want to learn standard first, but you can get to music pretty quickly in non-standard tunings.

This thing about pushing instruments into different styles of music starts to break down if you look at history. Guitar wasn't very common until Charlie Christian. "Traps" didn't do much until Krupa. Piano changed with Fats Waller. Bass with Mingus. For that matter, I don't remember who brought "hawaiian" into country, but people probably couldn't imagine it until it happened.

Most of us aren't going to create new genres of music (certainly not me!). Or even new styles within existing ones. But if we tell ourselves it can't happen it won't.

Well, sort of.

See, the thing is, they already WANT to. I've seen enough interest to know it's not unique to the few dozen young players I know pretty well.

They're already knocking at the door, have looked at the forum, have looked at the books.

That's why I think, especially with RR's impact, the time is right to move on this.

BTW, as far as Paul's playing - I agree it sounds like good OLD Rock and Roll, ads Herb said - but not like good NEW hard rock...and there's a HUGE difference.

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

So I don't see a huge issue with a *basic* steel intro course that's more generic, gives general tuning (based on E9) and instrument details, and then instruction in more of a generic format with snippets of different styles..again, that's how many beginner guitar books are put together.

But the assumption that exisiting materials have served the market well for years, while not wrong, assumes the market is fairly static, and in no way accomodates younger players in styles way outside country...or even classic rock. ZZ Top examples prove you can play classic rock on pedal steel - but 25 year olds aren't pumping ZZTop through their iPods, they're listening to band like (this is a short list, contributed to by several 24-25 year olds (all of whom work in some part of the music industry) and a couple middle-schoolers who play guitar:

Gojira
Nile
Mastodon
The Mars Volta
Killswitch Engage
dillinger Escape Plan
The Descendants
Pennywise
AFI
The Offspring
Alice in Chains
Nine Inch Nails
Linkin Park
Jane's Adiction
Re Hot Chili Peppers (one comment - 'oh, they're classic rock")
Coldplay
Nickelback
And the everpresent Ozzy and Metallica...and Zep.
Hendrix was mentioned
Surf music was mentioned
Yes and Pink Floyd as well
And yes, Robert Randolph was mentioned. They had never heard of the Campbells.

I mentioned Green Day and they laughed...

*That's* what you're looking at if you want to appeal to younger players- not the "rock" of Paul's playing on Dire Strait's stuff, which is entering the Classic-Rock phase. Not the ZZ Top of the "carter Starter demo". That stuff is great - but meant for an older crowd, which seems to be a sort of inherent problem with pedal steel market perceptions - because the "buying crowd" IS older, they cater to it. But as that crowd dwindles (we don't live forever) either the builders and producers of instruction materials will have to change with it or fade away.

Obviously there will be still a country market - but eventhe country players complain that *that* market is losing groud, with less steel being used on recordings....and all it takes is a viewing of a video of a major steel show to see the amazing lack of younger players.

I still think it will take more than JUST new instruction materials...it will take manufacturers interested in marketing to the potential players outside the "comfort zone", and perhaps (if not changing tunings) adding features other musicians are accustomed to - multiple pickps, tone/volume circuits, etc.