Billy Poteet

As always, you are apt to get a myriad of opinions. I will join that fray

Having had both and played them extensively (at home) for a long time, the following is my assestments; Pro and Con:

Keyed:

1. Generally harder and takes longer to change strings.

2. Because of a longer string string length(bridge to key peg), string breakage tends to be more frequent. Too much tension.

3. The overtones from strings beyond the nut give the guitar's sound a more "WANTED" tone according to many I have talked to. And I concur. This, even though the fingers to the left of the bar are supposed to mute these sounds. Something is still there. I can't explain it. I just know it is.

4. 10 and particurly 12 string keyheads tend to be large and take up a lot of room. Thus, the guitar must be made longer; and of course heavier.

5. Since most humans tend to have a low DC factor (they Detest Change ), the key head is said to be aesthetically more appealling. Or as one player put it, "it 'jes luks better!".

6. Sustains better AFTER the 12th fret*

7. Open string tuning somewhat more convenient. (This is changing like the Sierra and GFI presently do it)

Keyless:

1. Shorter and of course lighter Guitar.

2. Changing strings often considerably faster. (Excluding the 3rd string which can be a bear)

3. Looks odd to many. ("jes don luk right!")

4. Because the total string length is much shorter, it is common to have a longer scale. IE, 25-25 and 1/2 as opposed to 24-24 to 1/4. This is supposed to give a better sound and have more sustain. (See note below)

5. The longer scales make respective pedals and knee levers stiffer than on keyed guitars. More tension is the culprit here.

6. Loses sustain faster beyond the 12th fret*

Please note the asteriks (*) in both the keyed and the keyless scenarios.

* I have been taken to task on this several times. However, I can only speak from my OWN personal experiences going from my keyed to my keyless guitars and back.

Further, because my style of playing (like JB) uses a lot of very long and many fretted sustains, from one end of the neck to the other, both my Sierra AND my Excel have simply run out of gas before the sustained phrase has finished.

This has NEVER happened on any of my keyed guitars. For those that don't play this style, this may be NO problem. And, they may have never noticed it as a result. I can assure you that this IS the case on both my keyless guitars. I can only attribute the cause to them being keyless vs keyed.

carl

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

I could be happy with either setup (and have both keyed and keyless steels set up at home).

Since you asked, here are a few things I've noted about keyless...

I'm into anything that makes string changing faster and easier! (admittedly, it wasn't "what I was used to" at first, but now it is second nature).

The keyless micro tuners work great for micro tuning adjustments. I found on my keyed steel I was always using the string winding tool to get more of a "micro touch" leverage on the tuners. (That string winder trick works great for micro adjustments on keyed steels, BTW).

As far as the scale length, I've never really noticed much of a difference. If anything I've noticed that a 25" scale gives me a little more room to eyeball exactly where I'm at when up in the stratosphere (Fret 17 and beyond).
I also prefer the feel of playing on fret one (and even fret zero!) on a Keyless steel.

Keyed or Keyless, tone and sustain, pedal action, "look", ect... are all pretty "personal taste" type issues. So I would say, in general, you really have to do your own tire kicking.
I personaly don't hear or feel any drastic difference between the keyed and keyless Sierra's I've played (Keyless is a little lighter).

I think both Keyless and Keyed steels all look "extremely cool", so again, personal preferance reigns!

These are not keyed vs. keyless issues. A Williams will feel like a Williams, a Sierra will feel like a Sierra. The head makes no difference in the feel of the pedals.

As far as sustain above the 12th fret, I never really noticed that problem when I had my Kline but it could have been. I do know that the Kline seems like it sustains forever.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 05 June 2002 at 12:53 PM.]

You are absolutely correct. IF one takes a keyless 25 and 1/2 inch scale guitar vs a 24 and 1/4 inch keyed guitar, the keyless will require MORE inch/pounds to pull a given string to a given pitch.

Everything else being equal a Sierra keyless (25 inch scale) will be harder to engage a given change than a keyed 24 and 1/4 inch Emmons (keyed). This from actual tests made by me in trying to figure out why my pedals and knee levers felt stiffer on my Sierra than on my Emmons. EVEN though the travel was further on the Sierra!!!

I don't believe it has anything to do with the fact one is keyless and the other one is keyed. Rather, I believe it is caused by the fact that most keyless guitars, have longer scales. This because they have less string breakage.

Buddy Emmons said (right on this forum) and Ron Lashley told me that they tried longer scales on their earlier guitars but excessive string breakage ensued. So they settled on the "standard" 24 and 1/4" length.

quote:

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Wouldn't it depend on which strings are being pulled?

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I could 'lessen my grip' more on the D-10
keyed Sho-Bud.

There is definitely more tension on the keyless. If my mind starts to drift while engaging the B pedal [like taking in everything else that is going on in the moment] then FLATNESS & OUT-OF-TUNENESS will be easily noted by all present.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

With much respect, and much Christian love, we will agree to disagree.

A 24 and 1/4" keyless PSG, WILL have less string breakage (everything else being equal) than a 24 and 1/4" keyed PSG.

I can, and have proven it beyond ANY shadow of a doubt. The tension on strings 3 thru 7 is MUCH less on a keyless guitar. And tension IS what breaks strings. True, they happen to break at the top of the changer in most cases. But the root cause is the tension, in this analogy.

If a PSG has the Anapeg or Excel (Super B) type changers, the strings will rarely if EVER break. Plus, if one were to make two identical guitars of either of the above (and everything else was equal), the keyed instrument WOULD break strings quicker than the keyless, IF, they ever broke at all.

My Excel is now over 2 yrs old. It has the original strings, except two, as an ongoing test. It has been played just about every day for hours at a time since April 5th, 2000.

It has broken two strings; the 1st string and the 4th string. The 4th string was defective from the first day and broke shortly after I received the guitar. The 2nd string broke because I was asking too much from it.

I coupled the change (F# to G# on string 1 with the lowering of string 6 from G# to F#). Since the lowering of my 6th string a whole tone is my MOST used knee lever, that 1st string was just not capable of that much stretching and relaxing.

I rarely openly debate with ANY one on this forum. But this time, I simply have too much actual test experience concerning this subject to let it alone.

God bless you all,

quote:

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Keyless will not eliminate string breakage. It will help only because of shorter pedal travel. When a string is bent at the changer so many times, it will break regardless of how it is anchored at the other end.

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