BTW--a jazz hero of mine, Eric Dolphy, had a blues tune (it should have been a 12 bar blues but Eric made it a 14 bar blues instead) where the band basically plays the changes in Bb and the head is essentially in E. It always sounded salty as hell to me but once I realized the concept it was a smack-on-the-head revelation.

[This message was edited by Jon Light on 24 July 2002 at 04:55 PM.]

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In the key of C, play an F#7 instead of a C7

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G7 Mixolydian (a C scale from G to G)
G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G

Db7 Mixolydian (a Gb scale from Db to Db)
Db,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,Bb,C,Db

The Db Mixolydian scale spelling is actually Db Eb F-Gb Ab Bb-Cb Db
That scale thus provides the F and B (Cb) tritone that creates the dominant to tonic effect when moving from Db7 to C.

Dennis: More good info...you guys know this stuff, but do you play it? There are 796 possible 7-note scales in an octave!
I'm catching on...a little. Paul F. is very knowledgeable on theory also.

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you guys know this stuff, but do you play it?

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OK. When I started reading and collecting this info on modes, scales, tritones, etc., it overloeaded my head, so I'm taking it slowly. John's dissertation of several years ago about how to figure what chord goes with a mode was a real help.

Thanks, good stuff!

Wouldn't the Db mixolydian start on Ab, the fifth tone? Is the C natural, or is this a minor scale?

The Db Mixolydian Mode starts and ends on Db. The root tone of the scale is named along with the scale type or mode. If you wanted to relate this mode with it's dominant position then you would say that Db Mixolydian is in the key of Gb.

This can get confusing at times. It's fun to learn though, so keep up the good work.

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so just play a dimished 7 chord, which is all over the place on C6.

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C6th IS Am7, ECAG, but you know that.

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What I meant was that the diminished 7 chords are all over the C6 TUNING!

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 27 July 2002 at 11:27 AM.]

Ionian (The major scale)
Dorian (The ii scale in a ii V7 progression)
Phrygian (Less common, a Moorish sound)
Lydian (Bluegrass fiddle sound)
Mixolydian (The V7 scale in the ii V7)
Aeolian (The natural minor scale)

So; I,D,P,L,M,A.

There is a 7th mode, Locrian, but it is used so seldom nobody jacks with it. (Locra=Devil. The devil's mode)

The mode always takes its name from its own root. D Dorian starts on D. Dorian is the second mode. D is the second step of the C scale.

Example -- a 12-bar blues

C6/F#7/  F/F#dim/  C6/C#7/  C7/F#7/
F7///    F#dim///  C/Dm/    Em/Ebm/
Dm/G#7/  G7/C#/    C/G#7/   G7/C#6/ --->C6

-- full of tritone subs -- or just resolving from a half-tone up -- it's the stuff western swing is made of

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 August 2002 at 06:28 AM.]

Thanks, I understand. I thought of a "D dorian" as the second mode of a C scale, so, in my mind, it was a C dorian. I'll correct my thinking.

b0b:

Finally, I could stand it no longer and I had to go to the stage and compliment him.

Then I learned I had seen him when I was a young lad going aroung to fairs and carnivals to listen to the 101 Ranchboys. He was their steel guitarist !!

And as with so many ( I think I'm going to have to change that to ALL...) men of steel,
he was a delight to talk with and a nicer gentle man you would never want to find !!

 | Fmaj7  | Em7b5 A7b9 | Dm7   G7    | Cm7   F7  |
 | Bb7    | Bbm7  Eb7  | Am7   D7    | Abm7  Db7 |
 | Gm7    | C7         | Fmaj7 D7alt | Gm7   C7  |

And, you're right, as usual, Paul. I should have included my adopted grampa LT as another of the legends of rhythm guitar. He is a class act WHATEVER he chooses to do (or be).
Thanks for the reminder.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 August 2002 at 10:24 AM.]

I think out of the tidbits of news and information on instruments and players, the highest goal of the Forum is it's ability to educate and this is a class example of that in action. I luv it !!

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Show off!!!!

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Hey Larry, I'd be a showoff if I composed that progression, instead of CP. I do think it's very clever, with the descending ii,V's and all. I wish I did come up with something like that. If I do, I will show it off!! It does really point to the fact that you can substitute most anything you want, just so long as it ends up somewhere that makes sense. Resolution and all that sort of thing. Regards.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 August 2002 at 02:13 PM.]

The only way I can find a 7b5b9 on my guitar is to push "P5, P6", and lower the C to B. On a "standard" C6th, this would be on strings 2,3,4,5,6, or 2,3,5,6,8. The open notes are F B A Gb Eb, the B being, of course the b5. It is a wild sounding chord. I could get it with the #9 pedal and the A to Bb raise - if - I didn't raise the lower A also. Sometimes there are reasons for not raising or lowering octaves.

1-------
2-------
3--0(7-- 13
4--0(7-- #11
5--0(5-- b9
6--0(6-- 7
7-------
8--0---- 3
9--0---- root
10------

You could optionally use the 7th string (5th) too.
This bare bones (and often rootless) voicing is used by pianists and guitarists alot as a dominant chord option. It is a "Upper Structure" chord. Upper structure chords are like polychords, in the way that
the 3rd and 7th are placed on the bottom to define the chord, and a completely different triad is placed on top. In this case, the piano players would call this "Upper structure #4 minor", meaning
the defining tritone for F is placed on the bottom (A and Eb) and the #4 minor chord is placed over it (In this case Bm). The result: F7b9#11
There are other upper structure chords as well, and they are all dominant chords. Some are more readily available on the steel than others.
Other upper structure chords commonly used are:

II = 7#11 chord
bIII = 7#9 chord
bV = 7b9#11 chord
bVI = altered chord (used alot by steelers)
VI = 7b9
Iminor = 7#9 chord
bII minor = 7b9b13 chord
bIII minor = altered chord
#IVminor = 7b9#11 chord (Our example)

-John
edit: I just tried out the chord I tabbed, and it sounds rotten. I don't know why. It sounds fine on some other instruments. Maybe it's just out of context. -J

[This message was edited by John Steele on 02 August 2002 at 01:32 PM.]