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Author
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Topic: Which All-pull sounds closest to a Push-Pull
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John Russell
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 26 August 2002 06:39 PM
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Interesting comment from a qualified player. Of course, Tommy plays so wonderfully, it's probably academic which guitar he plays.I think a big factor is how different ears hear sound. I've heard lots of praise regarding old-style single coil pickups and to me they just sound thin and nasally. Of course the PP crowd will say, "well duh, that's the point." I realize that in the case of B.E. he's recorded plenty and on a variety of instruments. I prefer the sound that's a bit darker, mellower, if you will. I think that's from his EMCI phase. "Someday Soon" is a beautiful tone, it must be from the PP era, no? Well, the EQ on that session was just right. Point is, he always gets a great sound. Sorta like, "which Eric Clapton sound do you prefer, the humbucker-Gibson sound or the various Strat tones?" Mmmm, tough call. To me, it's all Eric and all great. I've replaced the single coil stock pickups from the Sho~Bud and the Zum guitars I've owned. Both occasions I replaced them with the George-L 10-1 pickup and, to my ear, improved the sound. Bruce was not amused when I told him that. What's important is how it sounds to me and it helps my performance.
--JR |
Bob Snelgrove
Member From: san jose, ca
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posted 27 August 2002 07:50 AM
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JohnFunny you mentioned Clapton. He is my original mentor/hero/influence. I think his tone has gone downhill over the years. His "Cream" Gibson/Marshall tone stll defines what rock guitar should be. (Listen to "Crossroads, live at the Fillmore) I bought a '58 strat when he went to Strats, an EC sig. model when they came out, but still love the "Cream" tone. What's funny is, that after playing my Franklin w/ 705's for the last 6 years exclusively, I pulled my Crawford built '78 push/pull out 2 weeks ago and am completely in love again. And I didn't even change any preamp/amp settings! bob |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 27 August 2002 08:14 AM
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quote:
And I didn't even change any preamp/amp settings!
Well, you should!  (jus' kidding; see above)------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com
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Bob Snelgrove
Member From: san jose, ca
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posted 27 August 2002 08:35 AM
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Jim
I was really surprised that I didn't have to tweak anything cuz I'm a tone tweaker. This doesn't mean they sounded the same by any means; The Emmons is clearer and lo/hi notes are more defined. Even my bandmates were all wowed!I do go through a GP-100 into 2 steel amps, and I'm sure if I took both guitars directly into an amp, I would have to some serious adjusting. I think my Emmons pu's must be darker than most because they seem to have more of a nice mid bite (not muddy!) rather than a bright treble bite. If I swith from my Strat to my 335, I have to do major tweaking through the same amp. bob |
Jim Palenscar
Member From: Oceanside, Calif, USA
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posted 27 August 2002 10:12 AM
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Some of the best sounding guitars that I've heard have been contructed of dieboard- actually a high quality plywood~ so no dissin' plywood~~~ |
Rex Thomas
Member From: Thompson's Station, TN
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posted 27 August 2002 11:12 AM
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Here, here!! You go Jim! I totally agree. By the way, how are things in Heaven, oops, I mean; Oceanside? |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 27 August 2002 02:17 PM
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To anyone that can't tell "a dimes worth of difference between a Emmons push-pull and any other steel guitar after playing them all with their own hands, either needs new hands or new ears.
However, if you can't tell the difference in guitars, this could be good since you have a whole world of guitars that will suit you just fine, where as I only have a very small choice of guitars to satisfy my tonal appetite.
As I have said before, "If you can't tell the difference, it really doesn't matter." Unfortunatly, as are several players I know,I am cursed by being able to distingush the differences between the different brands. Sometimes I wish I couldn't. I have four favorite "old" brand guitars that I love very much. New guitars? One, possibly two.
However, this is my taste,after 45 years of playing, everyone has their own opinion. Bobbe Seymour |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 27 August 2002 02:49 PM
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You are so right Bobbe! That's the very reason I'm back to the p/p. There's just nothing that sounds like them. My problem was I played one for so long and nothing else would match up so I had to get back to that sound. The Sho-Bud ain't bad but it ain't no p/p. |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 27 August 2002 03:08 PM
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....."To anyone that can't tell "a dimes worth of difference between a Emmons push-pull and any other steel guitar after playing them all with their own hands, either needs new hands or new ears.".....I confess Bobbe...I've never played a push-pull.... Which do I need...new hands or new ears?...or both"?
www.genejones.com
[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 August 2002 at 03:42 PM.] |
Rex Thomas
Member From: Thompson's Station, TN
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posted 27 August 2002 03:09 PM
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Uh, "which all-pull do WE think sounds closest to a push-pull"?
Goodnight Mrs. Calabash where ever you are.  |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 27 August 2002 03:40 PM
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Gene, you silly guy, all you need is an old Emmons P-P guitar set up perfectly and a stack of great "P-P" records. Buddys, Weldons, Hals, Sonnys, or if you are really brave and crave great tone---- MINE!!!
You have the hands and ears, just get the guitar, before they are all gone. This time is getting close. It happend to all the great Bigsbys, The P-P is next. 15 years, everyone will be saying, "Remember when we could buy---------->" The only place where we can see one in the future may be Japan, Germany, etc. ( Hopefully,my house) Elmer P. Suggins
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Steve Stallings
Member From: Bremond, Tx, pop 876, Home of the fighting Bremond Tigers
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posted 27 August 2002 03:42 PM
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uhhhh... what was the question again? |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 27 August 2002 03:50 PM
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Which one the closest? No question, the one that was engineered from the ground up to sound the closest to it. The new LeGrande II.
We sell both , and stock both along with a few other nice brands, but these two guitars sound very much alike. As they were made to do. Exactly alike? no, but a lot alike, more than anything else does. Which is better? Chicken or eggs? Pullet or Push-Pullet?
Does any other brand guitar sound very much like a P-P Emmons? Not to me , but a couple sound "Acceptable".
Bobbe. |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 27 August 2002 03:53 PM
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Bobbe....I am an old guy with a limited (?)income...how do I try out one of those pp guitars? I am not opposing your opinion, but with my limited income how do I try out one of those alternatives? (One of those guys from west of Duncan (Granite) that is trying to "get by").One of your "fans", Gene Jones www.Genejones.com |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 27 August 2002 04:37 PM
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Gene, My best advice is to get away from "West Duncan". Just kidding, I am also a fan of yours!
Now, all I can say is sell whatever assets you have to sell and get one quick while you can,(before they go up anymore). They don't really cost any money anyway. They are an investment, you get back what you spend.( better than "wall street") Buy three, put them under your bed and call me in seven years and collect your profit! I have a customer in Texas that is buying as many as he can, he won't let me tell anyone who he is but he has a complete collection of the total "set" of Push-Pulls: Wrap-arounds, bolt-ons, Woodnecks,fullbacks,Split-necks,narrow and wide pedal spacing, late model styles etc.And he has a couple of "One off" expermental Emmons P-P guitars. I feel this complete collection may be worth $75000.00 now and going up rapidly as he is adding to it. I know a "overseas collector" that is very intrested in this collection and the price will mean nothing to him if he could just get this wise Texan to give him one.
Intresting? It is to me. I feel the value is much more as a total "Set" than it would be if the guitars were just valued individually. This will probibly never happen with any other steel guitar brand.
Anyway, gettum' while there is a possibility to do so, or remember, "I told you so"! Thanks Gene,
Your buddy,
Bobbe Seymour |
Samuel E. White
Member From: Greeneville TN.
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posted 27 August 2002 06:16 PM
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Hey Guys I have to tell you this. I was at A MASGA show last month and I said to a freind of mine that has 12 Emmons Steels if he had one for sale. He said to me you don't want to get rid of your steel he had one and he said they are a great steel Guitar. Yep thats right and I'll give credit where it belongs to Jerry Fessenden for building a great Fessenden Steel Guitar.And thats the rest of the story.
Sam White |
John Russell
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 27 August 2002 07:45 PM
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If the PPs ever get that rare and valuable, somebody will come out with the the reissue, right? I'll just wait till then, maybe whoever does it can build me a S12U with tunable splits. |
John Russell
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 27 August 2002 08:29 PM
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...and birdseye maple front, built-in preamp and tuner. Check out the new Takamine and Ovation guitars. I'm not buying another steel guitar until that's available. I think Sneaky Pete had something like that on his old Fender. Re: PP guitars. I started to buy one once but the guy had a new ZumSteel right next to it and that quashed the deal for me. This PP was pretty dogged out so it wasn't a fair comparison. I guess I'll have to pack up my pick and bars and drive up to N-ville and visit Mr. Seymour to see what the fuss is all about.
--JR |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 28 August 2002 04:29 AM
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Bobbe....I just noticed I failed to include the Smileys during our exchange above, so here it is.  In reality, I intend to buy a PP someday so I will know first-hand why they are so highly praised. Your friend, Gene www.genejones.com |
Tommy Detamore
Member From: Floresville, Texas
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posted 28 August 2002 06:01 AM
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huh...? What's that?....Is somebody talking to me....? Oh darn, these funky old ears of mine....and my hands, well, I'm having to type this with my nose...HA HA! (It's a joke, Bobbe!
Either you didn't quite get my point or I didn't do a very good job of making it. Wanna have some fun? How about I send you some excerpts of some stuff I've done and you tell me which guitar I'm playing on which cut. While I'll bet you will get most if not all of them right, (after all, I didn't say there wasn't a difference. Maybe I should have said a "quarter's worth"...inflation, ya know...), it may illustrate my point a little better. That is, if you can put up with my bad hands (the playing) and my bad ears (the mixing). (ANOTHER JOKE! |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 28 August 2002 07:57 AM
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Tommy D, I'm not-a-pickin' on ya'. I just realized that a dime means a lot more to you than it does to me! Just kidding again! Tommy , don't misunderstand me, you are a known great player and I respect you highly and always have. I just don't know how to make a smiley face! I have to write: Ha! Ha!
You buddy,
Bobbe |
Michael T. Hermsmeyer
Member From: Branson, Mo 65616 USA
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posted 03 September 2002 03:24 PM
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Hey guys, I have been watching this post for quite a while. The question was "Which all-pull steel guitar sounds "the Most" Like a push-pull steel guitar. First of all, I don't want to offend anyone, second, if you have never played or owned a push-pull Emmons, then you can't possibly understand the question, and third, I do feel qualified to answer because I do own a '73 push-pull and a '92 LeGrande. I have also owned, played, listened to and analyzed (with my ears) many brands and types of pedal and non pedal steels. Bobbe is right, if you want the push-pull tone, you need a push-pull guitar. Some are better than others, although I have not played them all myself. I play both of my steels every week and I prefer the '73 over my '92, however, both sound great. About my setup on the two, the '73 came all original and had been rebuilt by master steel tech Sonny Purdhum in Nashville and included the original pickups, 1/4"pole piece single coils. My '92 came with Emmons 108 humbuckers. I loved the single coil tone, so I took the '73 C6 pickup and swapped it with my '92 E9 108. (I am mostly a E9 player, but I did like the extra fullness on the C6 necks with the h'buckers.) Now my '92 sounds very much like my '73. But..... There is still an amazing amount of fullness and lower mids that the push-pull just produces naturally, regardless of electronics. Age?? Possibly, but the only things that really age would be the maple cabinet and the breaking in and wear on the metal parts. I think that the way the changer is designed has more to do with the richness of the tone than the age factor. As far as push-pulls are concerned, there are many that sound good, even great, but I have not heard that full perfect tone yet out of one, even with the exact same pickup. The Zum is closest to my ears as far as what I have heard, but, that is not a full comparison with the same pickup, cable, pedal and amp. Bruce Zumsteg, to my knowledge, owns a 1966 or similar Emmons push pull that he uses for a "benchmark' for his tone. I think it is one of the closest sounds to the pp to date, and it is of course an all pull guitar. If I was purchasing a new steel, I would buy a Zum. Or maybe a Franklin doubleneck Pedabro. LOL. (Hal Rugg influence?? Ehhh, could be, LOL)George L and Buddy Emmons designed the E66 pickup to make Buddy's MCI sound like his 68pp. So maybe an MCI with an E66 is closest, I haven't tried that combination, so I don't know. I had an E66 in one of my Sho-Buds and I didn't care for it. I put a single coil in and it had that Sho-Bud sound again. I love both of my steels, and the tone is very close, but not the same. Sorry this post is so long, its hard to explain how I feel about tone without going on and on. Thanks for your patience, and Dag, youre a great player, I hope this helps my friend. By the way, Wasn't it great to see and hear Buddy Emmons back on an Emmons, WOW!!------------------
UTILITY MAN PRODUCTIONS
'73 EMMONS D10 FATBACK, '92 EMMONS D10 LASHLEY LEGRANDE,
'85 DOBRO 60DS, '95 DOBRO F60S,
'95 MELOBAR CUSTOM, 1955 FENDER TRIPLE NECK STRINGMASTER. EVANS, FENDER, PEAVEY,
and MESA BOOGIE Amps.
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Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 03 September 2002 07:41 PM
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Well, I'm jumping in on this conversation late, but here's my $.02.The PP may have a characteristic sound, but within the genre they all sound different. Hey, I own a 64 woodneck, a 64 wraparound, 3 65 wraparounds, and a 66 bolt-on. I think I know a little bit about the PP sound and each of these guitars sounds different than the other 5. On the way back from Nashville with a 65 that had just been Cassified, I stopped in at Carter and Bud asked to see my 65. We set it up and compared it to 5 Carters that were at the shop. Four of the 5 sounded absolutely nothing like the Emmons, of course, but one was so close... WOW!. It was a blue Carter with George L TPPP's. Fabian and I went in the other room and listened while Bud played both, and frankly I couldn't tell which guitar he was playing. I even emailed the guy who ordered the guitar and told him about how great it sounded. Of course, he immediately changed the pickups on it! I think he now plays an Emmons!!!!!! My point is that all guitars are individuals. If one of a particular brand does sound identical to an old PP in the ear of the player or audience, the owner should consider himself very fortunate. But since there's a wide variety of sound even amongst PP's, it's kind of like shooting at a moving target, isn't it? ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association |
Bobby Flores
Member From: Blanco, Texas, U.S.A.
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posted 07 September 2002 07:41 PM
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..... Herbie, there seems to be an imbalance in the years there. I think you may have at least one '65 you might consider parting with to kind of "even out" the set.  Heard you did an outstanding job at convention! Wish I could've been there. Which horn did you play?
Bobby |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 08 September 2002 04:22 AM
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quote:
Four of the 5 sounded absolutely nothing like the Emmons, of course, but one was so close... WOW!. It was a blue Carter with George L TPPP's. Fabian and I went in the other room and listened while Bud played both, and frankly I couldn't tell which guitar he was playing.
Herb, it's sure good to have someone of your reputation come out and say that. It kinda reinforces what a lot of us think...that there's more than one way to get "that sound". At a show, Curry Coster and I were listening to an Emmons and a Mullen, being played side-by-side. We both agreed that the the Mullen sounded more like an Emmons than the Emmons did! |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 08 September 2002 05:21 AM
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FWIW, on my CD "Finally Here", all tracks except one were cut using a Fessenden. One track used an Emmons pushpull. Most people have guessed wrong as to which track used the Emmons. |
Dennis Detweiler
Member From: Solon, Iowa, US
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posted 08 September 2002 08:40 AM
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I've also heard different players take turns on the same guitar (sounds like and orgy?) and the tone sounds different each time. Some like red heads, some brunettes and some blondes. Turn out the lights and you can't tell
Dennis |
Jim Bob Sedgwick
Member From: Clinton, Missouri USA
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posted 08 September 2002 02:41 PM
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The last 3 seconds (of the set) feels the same with any of them. |
Joe Miraglia
Member From: Panama, New York USA
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posted 08 September 2002 03:17 PM
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Why do we want that P.P. tone,who set the standard? When asked do you play a Push- Pull do you say , oh no I just play a pedal steel guitar.I wounder if a lot of players when they first heard the sound of the P.P. said in their mind, thats a steel guitar. So no Steel guitar after 40 years has true STEEL GUITAR SOUND. Only the Emmons Push-Pull, hard to believe. Joe--Carter D-10[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 08 September 2002 at 07:10 PM.] |
Bob Snelgrove
Member From: san jose, ca
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posted 09 September 2002 09:16 PM
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FrankHave you ever played another Derby besides your old one? Wasn't it an all white guitar? If so, *That* was the problem bob |
Johnny Cox
Member From: The great state of Texas
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posted 10 September 2002 11:05 AM
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OK I'll stir it up a bit. Are you looking for a guitar that sounds like a 60's PP or a 70's PP or one of those with the thick vinyl looking mica. Or do you want it to sound like Buddy did on the black album. Emmons PP guitars are like all pedal steels, there are good ones, OK ones, bad ones and then there are a few great ones. Only those few great ones are going to sound that way. You can take 5 of every brand mentioned above and A B them with any PP and none of them will sound just like the PP. But lets say you do find one, all you need to do to spoil your day is get a different PP and all your dreams of that magic PP tone that people talk about, along with the mechanics of todays guitars will go up in smoke. Only Buddy Emmons playing the guitar that he used on the black album will have that sound. Even then the exact same conditions would need to be duplicated, the amp, the studio, the mike used and Buddy's mood or attitude on that particular day.
Please don't take this out of context, I am almost sure you are probably not trying to get that exact sound but I have heard this comment from so many steel players, I played a PP last week that sounded like the Black album. No they did'nt. They played a guitar that simply sounded good to them. The LeGrandes Buddy plays now sound nothing like that to my ear, they sound good but different. I play Zumsteels now, one is mica with aluminum necks, one is all wood with wood necks. They both sound great but are different. If you want a PP sound, then play a dozen or so till you find the one that has that magic sound you are looking for, not all do. If you want an all pull guitar then find one of those that sounds good to you. This is simply my observation.------------------
Johnny Cox
Zumsteel, Sho-Bud, MCI, Fender, Blattenburger lap steel.
So many steels, so little time.
[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 11 September 2002 at 06:39 AM.]
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