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Author
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Topic: Which All-pull sounds closest to a Push-Pull
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Dag Wolf
Member From: Bergen, Norway
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posted 23 August 2002 01:08 AM
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I know there`s a lot of friendly opinions out there but I would like to know from those you who has really done a A-B comparing. Which allpull did you think sounded closest? Thanks, Dag |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 23 August 2002 01:28 AM
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Just my own opinion, but I think the LeGrands come closest,,,,,, if you're just judging the guitars by themselves. A lot of other factors can and do come into the picture. Mostly the player with pick ups and other gear having some final affect on the outcome.
Bottom line really is, if you like and want the sound of an Emmons push pull, then you probably should play one.
BB
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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 23 August 2002 04:20 PM
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I honestly think that some of Herby Wallace's stuff (on his Zum) sounds awfully close to that p/p Emmons sound. (Dag, I took some comments I originally had here, and put them in a new topic titled "Tone schmone...")[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 23 August 2002 at 05:00 PM.] |
Larry Harlan
Member From: Thomas, OK, USA
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posted 23 August 2002 04:35 PM
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Well said, Mr. Hinson.
To borrow from Nike Shoes: JUST DO IT! |
Bruce Hamilton
Member From: Vancouver BC Canada
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posted 23 August 2002 05:31 PM
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Around the late eigthies a friend of mine became the owner of Sonny Garrish's JCH which had counterfit 705's on it and was used on countless hits during this period. He asked me to set it up to his specs and while I had it I started to A&B it with my push pull which had the factory single coils at 19500ohms. What I found was that I could not tell them apart. I had been away from the all pull guitar market for quite awhile and at that point I assumed all guitars basically had the same sound. In the late nineties I decided I would get an all pull guitar and was I in for a surprise. I was lucky enough to A&B the following guitars for an extensive period of time- Several Zums, a Franklin, several Carters,and a Legrande 111. I found they all sounded great but were missing that huge midrange that is characteristic of the push pull.
Since then I was lucky enough to get the pickups off Sonny's old JCH. I haven't installed them on the JCH I purchased last year yet as I don't see the point of having two guitars that sound the same. I spent many long hours A&Bing these guitars and that is the way it sounded to me. Your mileage may vary. |
jim palmer
Member From: fredericton,newbrunswick,canada
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posted 23 August 2002 06:01 PM
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A Dekley will do the trick,every time.... |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 23 August 2002 06:29 PM
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My vote is for the EMCI.
I've never heard Herby Wallace play a ZumSteel, but the Mullen guitars I've heard him play for the last ten years or so have been somewhat reminiscent of a push-pull, but the midrange isn't the same. LeGrandes are pretty close, but not quite there. I love the sound of my Fessy and I think it has similarities to the push-pull, but is also similar to a ZB -- I consider that a great combination.1. EMCI
2. Emmons LeGrande
3. most of the rest Just my opinion. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
Rex Thomas
Member From: Thompson's Station, TN
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posted 23 August 2002 06:36 PM
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Derby. |
Frank Carter
Member From: Downieville,Ca. Sierra
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posted 23 August 2002 09:35 PM
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I have a EMCI and a MCI. With E-66 pu, they sound as close to a pp as anything I've played. |
Chris Bauer
Member From: Nashville, TN USA
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posted 24 August 2002 05:49 AM
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Depends whose hands are on the strings... |
chris ivey
Member From: sacramento, ca. usa
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posted 24 August 2002 07:16 AM
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people named chris are always the wisest!
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Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 24 August 2002 10:04 AM
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Alot of guys that I've spoken to also
say EMCI with E66's. Mike Cass included.
I've never tried one, but when a used one comes along, they usually fetch a pretty
good price! I guess their knee levers
were a bit on the flimsy side from what
I've heard. ------------------
Push/Pull Video Clip |
Derek Duplessie
Member From: La Jolla CA USA
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posted 24 August 2002 10:43 AM
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Kevin ryan told me last night that jay dee is
playing an EMCI now (and he LOVES it!)What
does that tell you? -Derek |
Tim Hurst
Member From: Newport, TN
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posted 24 August 2002 12:12 PM
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I believe the all pull with the sound closest to a push-pull is one that Buddy sits down and plays. |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 24 August 2002 05:00 PM
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About 3 years ago I thought I wanted an all-pull guitar. I sold one of the best sounding p/p's I ever had and bought a Derby. Big mistake, no tone at all. I traded it for another p/p after only 6 months and have went through about 5 or 6 guitars since then. So now I'm back to the p/p (66 Emmons) and picked up a Sho-Bud along the way. The Emmons is to die for and the Bud with a new pick-up will be right in there and plays exceptional with zero cabinet drop. I always thought the Emmons sound kind of derived from the old Sho-Buds. Listen to Buddy doing Nightlife. That was a Sho-Bud and it sounded great. I plan to give the Carter guitars a good long look at the ISGC because of the BCT changer system. If the changer fingers on the p/p's are the reason for their tone then the BCT systems may be close as it's designed to do the same thing.[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 24 August 2002 at 05:16 PM.] |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 24 August 2002 05:40 PM
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quote:
I sold one of the best sounding p/p's I ever had and bought a Derby. Big mistake, no tone at all.
Frank, with all due respect, I think perhaps a fairer way to state this is that "I could get no tone at all from it." After all, many of us have heard Tommy White, Terry Crisp, and other players get wonderful tone from their Derbys (Derbies?) I think this really comes down to what guitar is the best fit for the way a particular person plays. I, for instance, have both a Fessenden and a Zum. I think the Fessy responds just a little better to the way I happen to play, how I attack the strings, how I like to milk a note, etc, etc. But, Lord knows, few of us would claim that the Zum has "no tone at all." It's just not the best fit in my hands. (Guys, that does not mean the Zum is for sale; sorry!  )Oh, by the way, getting back to the original question, I'd say the sound of the Fessy comes very close to the sound of a p/p... at least in my hands! Anyway, I've been told it's at least "acceptable".
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The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com
[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 24 August 2002 at 05:42 PM.]
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John Lazarus
Member From: Tucson, AZ.
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posted 24 August 2002 05:49 PM
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One word-EMCI. Best kept secret in the steel guitar world. |
Jody Sanders
Member From: Magnolia,Texas
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posted 24 August 2002 09:14 PM
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EMCI As the Big E once said, "The EMCI was the best all pull guitar on the market". When Buddy and George were working on a pick up that would sound like his 66 Emmons"The Blade",I had a new EMCI on order. Buddy got the first two pick ups, and i ask him if he would wind two more and ship them to Arlington for my new guitar. They did and I was amazed at the tonal quality. I still have the guitar, 8 and 6 and it is in mint condition. Jody. |
Mike Cass
Member From: Nashville,Tn. U.S.A.
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posted 25 August 2002 06:42 AM
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Tim Hurst...yep! 
& for my money & needs, the EMCI does seem to have that same "plumey" tone thats remniscent of a p/p. Unless Im mistaken, JD's new horn is an 80's Arlington MCI RX5000, if its the same one he got from me...and identical to an EMCI in all ways.
I did play on a few Emmons LeGrandeIII's @ SGN a while back (not to mention Dave Robbins' EIII)
that were very close to the p/p sound. I believe the ones @ SGN were newer ones built by Ron Jr's new company.
If anyone could make a guitar that sounds like a p/p, I guess it figures that it would be the Emmons Co. |
Johan Jansen
Member From: Europe
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posted 25 August 2002 07:14 AM
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What car gives me the feel of a Mercedes?
Make your choice:
a. Chevy
b. Caddilac
c. Lexus
d. BMW
e. Pontiac
f. MercedesHard to make the choice??? |
John P.Phillips
Member From: Brunswick, Ga. U.S.A.
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posted 25 August 2002 09:23 AM
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Well guys, It's seems to boil down to the "EARS THAT ARE HEARING IT" huh??------------------
"Let's go STEEL something"
If it feels good, do it. If it feels COUNTRY, do it twice
jpp
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Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 25 August 2002 10:12 AM
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Good point Johan.Everything else is just an imitator.But do we really want to drive a Mercedes all the time?A BMW might be a nice change from time to time. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 25 August 2002 11:05 AM
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quote:
I honestly think that some of Herby Wallace's stuff (on his Zum) sounds awfully close to that p/p Emmons sound.
I thought Herby played a Mullen.  |
Joe Henry
Member From: Ebersberg, Germany
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posted 25 August 2002 01:31 PM
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quote:
A BMW might be a nice change from time to time.
For those who can afford it... |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 25 August 2002 05:33 PM
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b0b
Since the late 70's Herby has played an Emmons,Zum, Emmons LeGrande,Sierra,Emmons LeGrande and Mullens in that order I think.As most of you know.He now plays his own series HWP Mullen.A great sounding an playing guitar. [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 25 August 2002 at 08:42 PM.] |
Steve Hellerich
Member From: Bardstown, KY USA
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posted 25 August 2002 05:48 PM
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In the hands of BE everything sounds like a 66 p/p I have heard him play six different brands and he gets the same great tone! The hands of the master. |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 25 August 2002 06:02 PM
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Jim,
That Derby I had just didn't cut it in the tone department for me. Maybe it was somethng else or the cat but every guitar I've played before or since sounded better to my ears. I've got a 72 Sho-Bud I'm playing right now with the single coils and it's got that Derby beat too. I was thinking about new pick-ups and may try a BL-910 on the E9 neck but last night it sounded better yet. I practiced about an hour before we started and that never hurts either. That Derby sounded like a plywood guitar to me. No tone at all. I think plywood should be used for flooring not guitar building. Ever hear these jazz guitar players, Joe Pass, guys like that? They all seems to have a very flat, no reverb, bassy kind of tone. It's fine for what they do but I never could figure why their tone didn't vary more. Chalker had that kind of tone. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag but I guess I'm more into the Lloyd, Buddy, Hughey kind of tones. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 25 August 2002 06:16 PM
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I think I have one of Herby's old courses around here somewhere with a picture of him playing an MSA. |
John Russell
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 25 August 2002 07:56 PM
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I suggest keeping the guitar you currently play and trying different amps. I've been on a "holy grail" search for tone too but I've focused the amp and how amps affect tone. What I use now is as good as anything I've heard on record. Not that I'm as good, of course, but tonally, I'm getting the sound I've always wanted. It's so good, I don't want to do anything but play all the time, no more frustration and wondering why I can't get "that sound" anymore. (E-mail me for details.)Remember, what you're hearing Buddy play on record and CD has been processed in the studio. Studio reverbs and delays can affect tone considerably. No question you need a good axe to begin with, buy hey guys, these PSGs are very similar, they're made of the same materials. There's probably as much variance between different individual guitars of the same brand and model as there is between different brands. Could you tell the difference between a vintage Fender Strat and a Squire reissue? I've heard good players sound wonderful on the Squire. OK, OK, I won't argue with you if you've played a dozen different steels and know first hand the subtle differences. Are you sure-- what if you found a brand X that sounds amazing? It happens. I'm just saying that amps differ quite a bit and you might be surprised what different sounds tube amps get from Solid State, and how different speakers and FX affect tone, etc. |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 25 August 2002 07:58 PM
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In terms of feel, there's no question that the Emmons LeGrande feels most like a PP Emmons in terms of pedal action. For some people this is a positive, for me it's a negative. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 25 August 2002 09:40 PM
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Bobby Boggs - You left out the Kline! |
Bruce Hamilton
Member From: Vancouver BC Canada
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posted 26 August 2002 06:37 AM
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With all due respect to the people who have commented I don't think Dag was asking what guitar in your opinion sounded like a p/p but what guitars have you a&b ed to determine your opinions and what were the results. When you A&B guitars you eliminate veriables such as "its in the hands" "its in the amp" "so and so (enter any major player,usually BE)can play anything and make it sound goood".You are just comparing one guitar against another side by side with you playing and listening. When I A&B guitars I use the same amp,volume pedal,cords,picks and the same room so that all the above veriables have been removed even when you compare another guitar at a different time. It may not completely scientific but it sure beats what I have read so far. |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 26 August 2002 07:31 AM
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Well, perhaps that is what Dag meant, but I'd like to opine here that I think A/B comparisons like that are not very useful at all. Here's why. What we're really interested in is how good each guitar can sound at its best (at least in our hands). So, let's say you do an A/B comparison of 2 guitars, using the same amp, same settings, same cords, picks, volume pedal, etc, etc. and it turns out, say, that one sounds "darker" than the other and we might not care for that dark tone. Are we done? Of course not. If you tweak your amp settings just a little bit, it might sound just as good as the first guitar. With a little more tweaking, it might sound even better than the first. So... do we really care that the two guitars needed different amp settings to achieve the tone you want? I don't. I'll just memorize the settings for each guitar. What I really want to know is how good I can make each guitar sound, not how they sound when you handicap one (or both) by refusing to adjust your amp! Make sense? Well, anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! ------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com
[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 26 August 2002 at 07:53 AM.]
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Johan Jansen
Member From: Europe
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posted 26 August 2002 07:48 AM
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. That Derby sounded like a plywood guitar to me. No tone at all.
mmmmmm???
Love my Derby. and the "plywood sound" , but that's personal
JJ
www.steeljj.com |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 26 August 2002 08:17 AM
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Good point Jim.You got me b0b. And Johan I had a Derby that sounded really good.The topic (Which All-pull sounds closest to a Push-Pull).Depends on which push pull your asking about.I've owned 5, played many more.My point.With the same pickups etc.Some sounded more (Push Pull) than others. [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 26 August 2002 at 12:12 PM.] |
Bruce Hamilton
Member From: Vancouver BC Canada
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posted 26 August 2002 09:11 AM
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Jim, when I do an A&B comparison I also do the tweak thing. But I have been nothing but discouraged with it. This is how I got into A&Bing guitars. I would be playing an all pull guitar and thinking this guitar can sound just like a p/p but when I played them side by side the all pull would get totally buried. Then I would start tweaking with the hope of EQuing the difference but it was never in the cards. Again this is not saying that the p/p is better than any other the guitar. Its just hard to duplicate. |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 26 August 2002 11:42 AM
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Jim Cohen has got it absolutely spot-on. I A/B'd my Emmons P/P and my Carter BCT some months ago. I tweaked the EQ to get the best out of both steels, if the Emmons was 10, the Carter was 9. |
Michael Johnstone
Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
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posted 26 August 2002 12:39 PM
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I think the majority of difference between guitars (playing ability aside) is in the pickup.Mostly I'm talking about old school single-coil vs modern humbucking designs.To me the tone of an old Emmons or Sho-Bud resides in those original old single coil pickups and it amazes me that someone would seek out a '66 PP or a '60s 'Bud for their elusive "tone" and then put a GeorgeL or BL humbucker on it. On the other hand however, if you were to take a Carter,Zum,Fessy,Franklin or what have you and put a 17.5 ohm single coil on it,dialed in the amp and played accordingly,it could sound very much like an old Emmons or 'Bud. |
Dag Wolf
Member From: Bergen, Norway
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posted 26 August 2002 12:42 PM
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I had a JCH that sounded real close to a PP but I didn`t have the chance to A-B. I sold my PP before I bought the JCH.
First time I sat down behind the JCH I had to tune it. I hit the 4th string and reached for the peg - grabbed it and WOOOW.... At first I thought I got an electrical shock but NO it was simply the vibration from the string.  I`m not a steel builder myself but this steel was obviously very well put togheter.
So I hooked it up and must say that the sound was the closest thing to an PP that I have been with an allpull steel. I had a second JCH that didn`t have the same string vibration through the body and it didn`t sound as good either. I hope the next JCH I have on it`s way to me do have the same "vibrations". I think this is a key to good tone and hopefully it gives a little bit of that Emmons PP sound. I kind of getting the "bolt on " itch....any 66 model for sale out there? Thank you for great inputs. I think we all do learn something new everyday on this forum. Thanks,
Dag [This message was edited by Dag Wolf on 26 August 2002 at 12:44 PM.]
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Tommy Detamore
Member From: Floresville, Texas
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posted 26 August 2002 12:47 PM
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As far as A/B-ing and tweaking go, I did that extensively for about a year. During that time I owned and compared three PP's (plus a '66 bolt-on on loan from Rick Price), three Sho Buds, and a Zum. I recorded a lot with all of them too. I must be deaf, (or dumb!), but at the end of the day there wasn't a dime's worth of difference in sound between any of them, at least "IN MY HANDS". I think no matter what you play, you're going to tweak your settings to get it close to what your ear wants to hear. Then your head, hands, and heart do most of the rest. The guitar is important for sure,and some are better than others in certain areas, but it is not the end of the story by any means.[This message was edited by Tommy Detamore on 26 August 2002 at 07:46 PM.] |
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