|
Author
|
Topic: Innovative Fretboard
|
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 04:57 AM
profile
In an effort to overcome the "Blind Spot" at the mid-range of the steel guitar's fretboard, I am preparing to develop a wider fretboard. The proposed fretboard would be extended appreciably, and the frets will be visible at all times, which would eliminate the inability to see the frets at the mid-range of the "neck". The wider fretboard will feature an upward curl at the furthermost edge, which will maximize visual accuracy in placing the bar at the proper location on the fretboard. A mirrored effect has not been ruled out as an addition to this "squeak in the forest" of new ideas. Bill H. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
|
posted 24 September 2002 05:13 AM
profile
IMHO, maximizing "visual accuracy" is the very reason some players sound so out-of-tune.  |
Marty Pollard
Member From: a confidential source
|
posted 24 September 2002 05:50 AM
profile
quote:
...an upward curl at the furthermost edge
This doesn't help anything. The straight lines on the curved surface will create a refractory effect leaving the player with just as much compensation to do as before.Lousy idea, Bill. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
|
posted 24 September 2002 06:10 AM
profile
A better idea for improving intonation might be to have no frets at all. (At least at the beginning of the learning curve.) I'm too chicken to cover my frets completely but I have found that my intonation got much better fast when I shifted my focus from my eyes to my ears.Bob [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 September 2002 at 06:11 AM.] |
Jim West
Member From: Vista,CA
|
posted 24 September 2002 07:32 AM
profile
IMHO, maximizing "visual accuracy" is the very reason some players sound so out-of-tune.I have always said that you position the bar with your ears not your hands.  |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
|
posted 24 September 2002 07:38 AM
profile
Redesign the instrument so that the player is positioned right at mid point of the the Fretboard. |
Michael Holland
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 07:40 AM
profile
quote:
I have always said that you position the bar with your ears not your hands
I couldn't disagree more. Is this to say "Put the bar somewhere in the vicinity and 'fudge' until it's kind of in tune"? 100% of your focus should be on the fretboard and nothing but the fretboard. Position the bar directly over the fret and perfectly in line with it. Never look at the bar or at your right hand. You can, of course, periodically check out the chicks in the audience.  |
Bob Mainwaring
Member From: Qualicum Beach Vancouver Island B.C. Canada
|
posted 24 September 2002 08:01 AM
profile
I'm certain that playing with a blindfold on would have the desired effect and would work out less expensive plus save your guitar in it's "original" condition.......  Big Bad Bob. ------------------
|
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
|
posted 24 September 2002 08:08 AM
profile
quote:
Position the bar directly over the fret and perfectly in line with it. Never look at the bar
That sounds like a good trick, Michael. Is that what you really meant to write? If so, please elaborate! |
Michael Holland
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 08:30 AM
profile
That's right, Jim. Look THROUGH the bar at the fret below. |
Marty Pollard
Member From: a confidential source
|
posted 24 September 2002 10:03 AM
profile
Michael is right though we still have to compensate for the parallax.Roy, I center myself on fret 13 when I sit down to play. Maybe we could make the guitar neck move instead of the bar... |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 10:15 AM
profile
OK, I'm new at steel, so maybe I shouldn't say anything, but that never stopped me before, so here goes.
Anybody ever seen a fiddle with frets? How about a cello, bass, viola, whatever, that must be played by feel for intonation alone?
OF COURSE NOT! I would think that the time spent making this new fretboard and installing it, would be better spent practicing playing in tune. Sure, Barry Bonds could hit more home runs if the bat were 8 feet long, and a foot in diameter, but wouldn't that make for a wacky strike zone.
Somebody asked Josh Graves if he could play dobro with his eyes closed, and he said,"I don't know, I never looked!"[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 24 September 2002 at 10:16 AM.] |
David Farlow
Member From: San Antonio, Texas, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 10:48 AM
profile
Seems like if you are only using the fret board you are going to have a problem at certain positions due to the various angles that you are looking down from. A perfect alignment with the fret would still be at best, in most positions, a judgement call. IMHO, especially for a new PSG player. Get those ears trained to be in tune. For some this comes naturally while others may have to work at it. If you can't get past this then maybe PSG is not for you.I sure don't want to listen to you if you play out of tune. ------------------
|
richard burton
Member From: Britain
|
posted 24 September 2002 11:29 AM
profile
Why not use a laser pen instead of a bar? You could line the red dot up exactly with the fret markers on Bill's upturned fretboard. |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 12:04 PM
profile
I would suggest that a good performance at the steel guitar is dependent on visual acuity, and a better than average "pitch memory", or recall. As for the imagined parallax, that is one of the less significant considerations, and is the lesser challenge in the process of becoming an accomplished player.
For example, try blindfolding a steel guitarist, then place his bar over the 6th fret. Ask the player to proceed by playing a melody that will require a good bit of bar movement. Do not allow him/her to raise the bar off the strings, or strike harmonics. Note if the player has the ability to return to the 6th fret with accurate pitch recall. The ability to do so, will indicate a very positive indication that the memory recall is not a problem for the individual. Still, much of the enjoyment of playing steel guitar is derived from visualizing one's achievements, much like playing sporting games.The wider fretboard will allow a steel guitarist to maintain an accurate placement of the bar, and reduce the frustration associated with having to resort to guessing. Bill H.
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 24 September 2002 at 01:04 PM.] |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
|
posted 24 September 2002 12:36 PM
profile
Wow! Bob Hofnar and I actually do agree once in awhile! I don't think anyone can argue confidently that, for us, watching what you're doing is more important than listening to what you're doing! We are, after all, primarily trying to make good music...and not performing for visual entertainment. Let's leave that to the "video" producers. |
Willis Vanderberg
Member From: Bradenton, FL, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 04:09 PM
profile
Try playing slants by looking at the fret board...it don't work.Of course most folks don't play slants anyway Buddy Van .Steel Guitar is there anything else |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
|
posted 24 September 2002 06:03 PM
profile
When the bar is directly over any fret I think it would be great if it prompted a little red light to come on at the top of the fret in front of the tip of the bar. Same type of indicator that lights up on our chromatic tuners when we tune a string straight up 440. It would be a striking effect don't you think?
Different colors? 
|
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
|
posted 24 September 2002 06:48 PM
profile
Yeah, Roy. As long as the audience couldn't see it too!  |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 06:56 PM
profile
The extended vertically mounted fretboard has proven itself to be so special, that to appreciate the concept, all you need to do is fold a piece of paper. Then hold the paper near the edge of your fretboard. Copy the frets on the paper. No need to copy more than 10 or 12 near the center of fretboard. Secure the paper in a position where the tip of the bar points straight at the vertical lines. If this fails to excite you, let me be the first to know. There is no need to look down at the fret board as you for the first time, see clearly the desired fret you are seeking.Bill H. |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 07:05 PM
profile
David Farlow, you've hit the nail on the head. If you've got to watch every move you make, without using your ears, you have no business playing ANY continuously-variable pitched instrument. I've been fooling with steel for less than a year, and I can play in tune. Maybe only two songs, but they're in tune
And if you can't play in tune, then how are you gonna know your guitar's in tune to begin with? What about singing? Mr. Hankey, have you come up with any devices to help singers stay in tune? Makes me wonder why I bend strings on guitar. I know, I'll put a dial indicator, calibrated to each string gauge and wired to a tuner, to tell me when I have enough deflection for the proper note. But wait, then I couldn't see the fingerboard! Oh, woe is me! Would somebody please tell Doc Watson to stop playing guitar? And Ray Charles-give up the piano. |
Marty Pollard
Member From: a confidential source
|
posted 24 September 2002 07:32 PM
profile
quote:
If this fails to excite you, let me be the first to know.
Fails to excite me? I’m damn near comatose over this one, Bill!
quote:
...have you come up with any devices to help singers stay in tune?
I’m thinkin’ cattle prod, here…
|
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 10:41 PM
profile
Marty, I've worked with singers over the years, where the cattle prod would only make them scream off key.
My position is, and always will be, that you learn to play in tune with your EARS, not your eyes! If you need gimmicks, then play pinball! |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 11:14 PM
profile
For the readers who are more realistic, I'll quote that "the proof is in the pudding". For the first time, this proposed, virtually vertical fretboard extension allows me to reposition the bar accurately, and the angle of my vision is much more natural. The visual aspect of the new concept is impeccable, and this is a large part of the excitement created by the change of looking up to greater degree. I will take the necessary steps to secure a patent on the proposed fretboard, after checking on the costs involved to do so. I noted while experimenting with the prototype, that there is a remarkable reduction of hesitation in taking off like a shot to land squarely on the chosen fret. This reality generated more excitement. The most advantageous angle of the fretboard extension is approaching 90 degrees, perhaps closer to 80 degrees. The best angle will be decided after a few observations have been accomplished.Bill H. |
Terry Wendt
Member From: Nashville, TN, USA
|
posted 24 September 2002 11:45 PM
profile
You could learn to play without looking at the fretboard at all... kind of like the trombone players do it ------------------
TheEarlyDays.com and appearing regularly...
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass! aLotOfSpace.com
|
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 02:10 AM
profile
Terry W.,Are you seriously proposing that playing without looking at the fretboard is possible? Do you know someone who has accomplished this feat? If not, what is your point?
As long as I have vision, I prefer the visual aspect of playing steel guitar. It's possible to play many songs, and not move off the fret. This I do on occasion, using chord melody to compensate for the lack of bar movement. Bill H.
|
Rick Garrett
Member From: Tyler, Texas
|
posted 25 September 2002 02:55 AM
profile
Joe Wright played some of his set in St. Louis without looking at the fret board. My wife commented on it at the time. And by the way he wasn't playing the song on one fret either. He was all over the place and not only was he in tune but it sounded great. Rick Garrett |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 05:02 AM
profile
Rick G M, Joe Wright will be performing at the Doubletree Club Hotel on Nov. 9th, and 10th, on 789 Ct. Ave., in Norwalk, Ct., at the P.S.G.A. 29th celebration. Many of my friends attend the event each November. Thanks for the interesting input. Bill H. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
|
posted 25 September 2002 05:48 AM
profile
It is difficult to get visual cues from other band members and it is impossible to read music while watching the neck.Needing to watch the neck to play is a weakness that steel players need to strive to overcome. To reinforce that weakness with a folded piece of paper sticking out from under the neck would have a crippling effect on mastery of the instrument. Bob |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 06:26 AM
profile
Forum Members,After experimenting with the vertical fretboard, I suddenly realized that the existing horizontal fretboard is no longer needed, and I am deeming it obsolete. Therefore, the main focus will be concentrated on fret lines which appear as though the nose of the bar is touching them. In addition, recognizable key figures at the top of selected frets will assure the player; of total accuracy, and ultimate ease, while in concert. Today, I will cover my horizontal fretboard with paper to obliterate the frets. If what I believe is true, my bar will become a pointer, like a pistol, and I will have freed myself from a major source of aggravation. Bill H. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
|
posted 25 September 2002 06:29 AM
profile
Bill,
At the ISGC in StL 20 years ago or so Buddy Emmons played a killer set. As usual, he took his guitar off stage and toted it to his booth. I went over (along with a bunch of others) to tell him how much I appreciated his set and noticed that The Blade had NO FRETBOARD. I asked him about it and he kinda shrugged his shoulders.And it is true that many good players (Joe Wright comes to mind) often close their eyes or stare into space while moving the bar all over the guitar -- single notes, chords, whatever. So, YES, it IS possible to play steel guitar with no fret markers. And YES, (FWIW) I agree with those who propose that practicing with the frets covered will accomplish much more than an attempt to make the frets more visible. To reiterate the point of another responder, how many violins have you ever seen with fret markers? The visual is just a cue and I agree that the proof is in the pudding, but that pudding is the SOUND and the feedback loop between the ears and hands is a critical mechanism and skill to develop, in my opinion. Just my experience and opinion. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 September 2002 at 06:40 AM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 06:38 AM
profile
Bob H.,Please don't be absurd by playing down the paper experiment. I clearly stated that it was merely a simple procedure to test the concept. The vertical fretboard will be in reality an attractive addition to any steel guitar, and will be removable if one chooses to do so. Bill H.
|
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
|
posted 25 September 2002 06:47 AM
profile
quote:
If this fails to excite you, let me be the first to know.
Bill, with my greatest respect, you have been duly notified.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 25 September 2002 at 06:48 AM.] |
Marty Pollard
Member From: a confidential source
|
posted 25 September 2002 06:59 AM
profile
Attractive addition???
What planet are you from??? quote:
...my bar will become a pointer, like a pistol, and I will have freed myself from a major source of aggravation.
If you'll just point it at your temple, you'll free ME from a major source of aggravation! |
Michael Holland
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 07:02 AM
profile
Bill,This is brilliant. I want one now. How far do you think the vertical extension should be from the first string, and how high above should it extend? Mike |
Steve Feldman
Member From: Millbury, MA USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 08:05 AM
profile
I have an idea for a name Bill: How about 'Lucky 24'? |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 09:24 AM
profile
Remember how the old multi-meters eliminated parallax error?... A mirror!
You knew the needle (bar) was exactly on the hash mark (fret) when the reflection of the needle disapeared (parallax).
(I chose the term "Hash Mark" {golden seal?} for you, Marty!)I was practicing in front of a window recently, and looked up and noticed I could see the reflection of my bar and frets quite well. I haven't experimented with a strip of reflective material placed vertically in front of my fretboard yet, such that one could see the fret and the bar, but I say...
...Run with it Bill, before this crowd gets ugly !
|
Ray Montee
Member From: Portland, OR, USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 09:25 AM
profile
One thing you can't take away from steel guitar players of late.........inventiveness.Not a day goes by on the forum where someone isn't trying to reinvent the wheel. How, oh how did the old time greats learn to play this contraption without all of these new concepts. No pedals.......no affects boxes.......no stage monitors, no tableture, etc. They usually dressed nicely and the bands even worked together instead of attempting to out due everyone else on the stage.
Paul Bigsby, Jackson-Emmons and others were inventive and deserve credit for their significant contributions to the steel guitar.
Practice makes perfect whereas gimmicks will one day show the world all of your undetected inadequacies. |
Marty Pollard
Member From: a confidential source
|
posted 25 September 2002 09:41 AM
profile
quote:
...your undetected inadequacies.
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN???Who told you?!?
You can expect to hear from my lawyer!!! |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
|
posted 25 September 2002 09:59 AM
profile
I would have to agree with Bob on this one. After watching the new Emmons and Rugg video you'll Buddy play a lot without watching at all..entire runs. I was at that show and seen that a lot from him. That's knowing your fretboard! The only problem I have with the fretboard would be glare or maybe the silver line fretboard in dark rooms. I don't have the nerve either Bob. I've tried it a time or two but you won't see me drift far from one, two, maybe three frets. It's the stage lights that create the glare for me. |
Topic Closed
The Steel Guitar Forum
