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Author
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Topic: Push Pull Changer Settings?
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rhcarden
Member From: Lampe,Mo / USA
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posted 12 December 2002 06:50 PM
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I have been reading the Forum for few years and I agree that there are some people who are very good at setting up and repairing guitars. I have done all the work on my
guitar sense it was new (aug,66). I have tried a lot of things that didn't work, but there are some things that work very well. I have always pulled the 5th string to D with a knee lever (LKR) and tuned the A pedal C# with a bellcrank tuner. When you use a bellcrank tuner you do not have spring on the pull rod. I did not have a problem with the C# on A pedal staying in tune and liked the the feel of the pedal without the spring. The 4th string F was staying in tune ok. The fact that these two pulls were working good without the pull fingers hiting body of the guitar made me think that I could get rid of all the springs on the A and B pedals. I removed all the springs and adjusted the collars on the pull rods so that the pull fingers stop just before hitting the body. The A pedal worked great, the pulls started together and sense the fingers do not hit the body, they always reach pitch at the same time. The B pedal was a problem due to the travel differance of the 3rd string and 6th string. I first tried a wound 3rd. It help to even the pull but, it would not lower to F#. I knew that on the A/p guitars they had adjustments on the bellcranks, so I modified the bellcranks. I always wanted the 3rd string to have a little faster change anyway, so I made the bellcrank for string 3 longer and string 6 shorter. Note! I still tune the same way, highest note with the key, lowest note with the screw, and anything between with a bellcrank tuner. Now! the guitar plays in tune, it has a better feel (I feel the string not a spring), it needs less slack to allow for the lowers G# to F# and B to Bb, and I think it has less cabinet drop (I'm not going to change it back to find out). It plays good! I don't think that any of you should work on your own guitar, however! if you do, and you find a better way, please let me know! Just remember, I bought this guitar new in Aug,66 and I know how it was set-up and how it played direct from the factory! No need to go there!
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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
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Jeff Peterson
Member From: Nashville, TN USA
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posted 12 December 2002 07:31 PM
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Kurt, step away from Bobby....at least 'till you get a P/P. Now, to carry on...I believe all rods, lower and raise need to be supported...the long ones(more than half the length of the body) twice. I see alot of guitars that don't have near the rod support they need. Why?...bellcranks cost money, and some techs(?) figure it either ain't worth it, or the guy will never know. This sucks, and I mean most guitars I see are this way. The raise rods do not need to be flappin' in the breeze, and the lowers do not need to bend like a deer hunter's bow.
Anyway, if you do your own work...great. If you get a chance to have a Bowman, Cass, Seymour, Lashley, or even little ol' me just look your work over, there might be a few things that you've overlooked..it might be worth your time. I mean a diagnostic look, not one of those $2000 Cass looks.....just kidding Mikey. |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 12 December 2002 09:19 PM
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Geoff,
 !------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
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John Lacey
Member From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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posted 13 December 2002 06:51 AM
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I'd be glad to include any or all of the info that Dr. Bowman has given us. I'll run it by my webpal Bruce Hamilton and see. I have my own question for Bobby or Jeff. How do you set up the spring return setup that is located ON the LKR. There is a spring right on the knee lever and also one near the stop bracket that is located near the endplate. How do these all factor into the Raise/lower E's syndrome? Right now, my LKR which lowers E's has a too short stiff feel. I've tried inserting shock springs near the bellcrank but that doesn't do it. Please help. |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 13 December 2002 08:44 AM
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Hi John,
I would imagine that those springs on that "slave reversing rod" are to help keep the lever it self from flooping around so much. Kinda' a "stabilizier" of sorts. If The LKR lever is either "factory" or at least designed like a factory one, then there should be 3 or 4 holes on the side of the lever itself for options that the slave rod can go through. The hole fartherest away from the base of the lever is the shortest travel, but hardest to push option. The one closest to the base is the easiest, but much longer in its' travel. Try running the pull rod through the next one down from the hardest/shortest hole. These holes are what determines the leverage ratio of the lever. Usually, all of the levers that move to the right (left with the guitar upside down) have these same option holes.
There are other factors that have to be considered too.
The bend in the rod so that it can go under one of the cross rods in order for it to have an unobsquered path to the bell crank must be given a lot of attention. It should pull with as little "flopping around" as can be obtained and not make contact with anything such as other cross rods or whatever. Most of the time the hole in the lever needs to be opened up a little to keep the rod from binding as it is pulled through the "arch" of the lever. To work on these holes, it probably best to remove the lever from the guitar. It's held to the cabinet with 4 screws at the base of the lever bracket. Ideally, that slave pull rod should be straight, but usually you have to put a "S" bend in it to clear the crossrods at some point. VERY IMPORTANT::: Make this bend as little and as true, precise and "square" to the rod as you can and still not touch anything in its' operation.
This rod goes through a small "L" bracket at the other end from the lever. This bracket is the stop. Make sure that it is securely fastened and tight to the cabinet. DON"T STRIP OR SHEAR THE SCREWS THOUGH.....just good and snug. The lock collar behind this bracket has to be adjusted so that it makes contact with the bracket at the same moment the strings reach their correct pitch,,,in this case, I presume it to be D#.
John, these areas are what is hard for me to put into words just what needs to be done. There are several things that must be attended to for this to work right. Just be observant to the whole "picture" or "scheeme" of things. If you see or recognize something that is not right or that is hindering the process, then do what is necessary to correct it and make it better.
Also, another thing that should be checked is the tension of the the lower return springs (on strings 4 and 8 in this case). This can be rather "testy" if you're not familiar with how to do it. But, those return springs can and do play a very important part in the action, feel and playability of the guitar. Have just enough tension on them to return the lower fingers firmly back to their "rest" position. Anymore tension than that is just more resistense that you have to overcome to activate the lever and or pedals, thus making the action of the guitar stiffer than it needs to be which results in a guitar that you're not happy with. There are so many "little" things that need attention when setting up a guitar,,,whether it be a push poull or an all pull. BUT, when you get them all right and with the proper adjustments, man, you have a guitar that other people would die for.
Even though most of these "little" things are really very simple, they are most of the time overlooked, even at the factory, and need to have some attention given to them. These areas of attention are what generally is learned through many times and years of exposure to these things and figuring out what can and should be done to make a guitar play to its' fullest potential of "goodness".
It's kinda' like a puzzle at first. But the more times you scramble a puzzle and put it back together, the easies it becomes to recognize what goes where and why.
More than likely, I've left something out in all of this. Just email or call me and I'll do my best to help you out.
Later,
BB------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
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Buck Grantham
Member From: Denham Springs, LA. USA
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posted 13 December 2002 10:46 AM
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That's why I love you Bowman, you'd give the last shirt off your back if some one just asked. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 13 December 2002 10:46 AM
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This is GREAT!
Bobby, you're a jewel.  ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 13 December 2002 11:17 AM
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Hey Buck,
I just feel that it's all part of "being in the family". If I can help, then that's usually what needs to be and should be done. The world is just full of too much personal selfishness and greed these days. Way too much dependency on computers and other modern day eletronic gadits to get things done and find ways to make "fast money" for me,,,and not enough dependency on ourselves to work things out together with love and compassion for one another. I'm just old fashioned, I suspose, but I'm a lot more comfortable that way.
I wish you and Mitzie the happiest of Holidays and may God bless.
BB------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
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rhcarden
Member From: Lampe,Mo / USA
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posted 13 December 2002 11:19 AM
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Bobby is right, if the travel is to fast just move the slave rod to a differant hole.There is another way to improve the action on all you lowers. With the pedal, or knee lever, pressed, put collars on the push rods behind the bellcranks to prevent the springs from expanding. You can also do this on pulls to reduce the amount of slack you need for lowers. ------------------
Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
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John Lacey
Member From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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posted 16 December 2002 06:09 AM
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Thanks, Bobby, I'll try that next time my guitar is home. | |
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