Could y'all P/P owners post your hole position on the changer for strings 3,4,5,6,8, and 10?

Here is mine:

A pedal, 10th string middle hole, 5th string third hole.

B pedal, 6th string middle hole, 3th string middle hole.

C pedal, 5th string third hole, 4th string third hole.

E-F lever, 4th string third hole, 8th string third hole

(First hole is *farthest* from strings)

thx

bob

I do lower 3,4,5,6,8,10. Thinking of removing all those like on Jay Dee's guitar that plays Soooooooooooo nice.

bob

ps Please email me too?

B pedal
3 string 3rd hole / long bellcrank.
6th string 1 hole / short bellcrank.

No C pedal. E to F# RLR.

I do not use any springs and the pull fingers to not hit the body.

(1st hole is farthest from the body.)

Didn't know that there were 2 sizes of bellcranks!

bob

Another problem is where to stop the pulls. They can be stopped at the body, or stopped with the little allen head screws for each pedal rod or knee lever. I was thinking that the longest pull should be stopped at the body (should give the best tone), and any additional shorter pulls should be stopped with the pedal or lever stops. Does that make sense?

What is the point of the little springs on the pull rods between the bell crank and the collar? Some rods have these and others don't.

Finally, I'd welcome any suggestions on the best place to get parts. I've gotten a few suggestions on this already.

Make sure that the pedal reaches maximum travel at the same time the pull finger hits the body. That little spring between the bellcrank and collar on the pull rod is there to: 1. prevent breaking the pull finger, and: 2. equilize the travel when more than one string is pulled with the same pedal.

I don't use any springs on the A and B pedals, but; if you don't know what you're doing, don't take them off. You can damage your guitar!

There are some who say that if the pull fingers do not hit the body of the guitar, you will not get a good tone. I have the following notes where the fingers do not hit and I don't here a tone change (1st string G, 2nd string D, 3rd string A, 4th string F, 5th string C and C#, 6th string G and A, and 10 string C and C#. I 've been told that my tone is very good! It must be the hands. No! It,s a 66 Emmons bolt-on p/p!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

[This message was edited by rhcarden on 09 December 2002 at 07:13 PM.]

For opimal pedal action, do you reccommend not having lowers on strings that raise? (Except for strings 4&8)

If a string (5) has a lower, does the raise require more throw than if it was a raise only?

How are your personal P/P's set up?

thx

So, if you have a big raise (whole tone, for example) AND a big lower on a string, it will require more slack in the changer to allow the lower to complete without the raise finger kicking in. There may be a point where getting both is not possible -- e.g., a wound 6th string will not lower a whole tone on any push-pull I've owned. But a plain sixth can raise AND lower a whole tone without a problem (one reason JayDee doesn't lower the 6th).

That's why you balance the changer before doing anything. To balance or 'tune' the changer, you manually push the lower finger and tune it to lower the proper interval for the MAXIMUM LOWER you need for any pedal or lever; let it return; pull on the raise finger and tune it to hit the body at the MAXIMUM RAISE. The changer is in tune if you can manually push the raise finger and the string raises that same interval. Same with lowers.

Like Jeff says, you set the lower first then set the raise to allow the lower to complete (slack) before the raise begins. Shock springs can make the slack less noticeable and improve the action.
Hope that didn't just confuse you.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 December 2002 at 08:12 AM.]

Do you agree that the raise changer hole will be different if that string has a lower? I know it will have slack, but why would the leverage of the raise(changer hole) be different?

My Emmons is in the studio right now, so I can't tell you fer sure, but most of the raises are in the middle hole (what you call #2). My guitar is a U-12 and most every string is raised and lowered and the action is excellent (IMHO).

Is there something you're trying to do that the changer won't do properly? Most push-pulls I've played do have slightly longer throw than an all-pull, but I've never had a problem adjusting to it.

Dave -- you need to raise your B pedal slightly, relative to the A pedal, if you can't rock completely off the A with B pressed.

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 December 2002 at 11:55 AM.]

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Problem I see is there are about a half dozen p/p repair gurus and their attitude seems to be that the rest of the world is incapable of understanding what they know about the mysteries of the p/p. If we could get some good, solid info out there for folks to refer to, those of us who can't send our horn to Tennessee or Texas at the drop of a hat might have some of the wisdom of the ages to draw on.

Our friend John Lacey has an excellent website with great info. If we can build on that with GOOD INFORMATION from guys like you and Cass and Seymour and Crawford, we can preserve some of that knowledge and spread it around a bit. I know that some fear for their livelihood, but I can assure you that the only push-pull I'll ever work on is MINE.

Just a thought -- I know you've contributed to John's site already but some nuts 'n' bolts techie stuff would be welcome.

Thanks for being here -- we really respect your knowledge and willingness to share. Good luck with that new guitar -- I'd love to hear and play one -- and see that double changer.

I'm in the same situation as Larry. If there was anyone in driving distance of me, I'd take this thing to them tomorrow. I'm also open to hearing about anyone anywhere that can competently work on a P/P, and would be interested in their price for a cleaning and adjustment (e-mail me).

As it is, I just bought a P/P which at some point in the past was taken apart and put back together wrong, which is the main reason it was at a price I could afford. At the moment, I'm not trying to do anything different or fancy with it. I just want the 3 pedals and 4 knees to do the simple basic E9 stuff. With no one else around here I can turn to, if I can't figure out how to adjust and maintain it myself, I'll have to reluctantly get rid of it.

2'nd: Set the changer by hand to "ALL" of the changes you want on the guitar. (this is the place where your guitar will tell you if you're asking too much of it, at least in most cases). This is also a good place to judge the guage and response of a string that it is correct and is compatible with other strings and changes in other places. Most of us use prepackaged strings and in most cases these have proven to be the best choices over a broad spectrum. They are not always 100% correct, but are usually "in the ball park".
With the changer "set" now all you have to do is rod the guitar,,,,well, sort of.

3'rd: Put in all the lowering or push rods. This usually has to be done in a sequence and with the advanced knowledge of what other strings are doing that will and might affect the "action" and outcome of the final goal. Always start with the changes that require the most travel and set you stops to that string. I find that lowers usually don't require as much travel as some of the raises so I have to keep that in mind as I'm setting things up.
In all likelyhood, at least until you have become familiar enough with the characteristics of the beast, you'll probably have to go back and make some changes and adjustments along the way. "ALWAYS" leave just a little slack or play in your settings....everywhere!!!! This will help to eliminate tuning problems later.

4'th: Now start the raise/pull rodding. I usually start with the 4'th string on the "C" pedal and the 3'rd string on the "B" pedal because thes usually are the "longest" throws (require the most travel) On a push pull this is where selecting the proper or best hole in the raise finger comes into play. Kinda', as a rule, you put the wire puller in the 1'st, or closest to the axle, hole. This is not always the case, but most of the time, it is. If the action is just too stiff for you, then you have no choice but to go to the second, or middle hole. In doing this, your action will be softer, but a little longer. This means you have to readjust the stop screw to allow for more travel.
Now, in most cases, I find that the 3'rd hole is best suited for everything else with the exception of raising the 1'st and 7'th strings a whole tone and maybe a few other "special", so to speak, changes. In this case, the 1'st string should probably be a .012 guage and the wire puller placed in the 1'st hole. The 7'th string will probably be in the middle hole. Another thing that has to be considered in these situations is what lever is going to activate theser changes. For instance, if you have these changes on the vertical, and you are also raising the second string (and lowering it a whole tone) you will have to drop the vertical so low that you can't get under the guitar and not cause it to be "out of tune" or the required movement of your leg is just not comfortable or becomes of no practable use for the change. This is where "the limits" of the "as is from the factory" guitar or string become a factor. Changes to the guitar can be made, but you have to have a way to facilitate those changes.

5'th: Start setting the other raises to be balanced (or unbalanced as the case may be) with the rest of the changes,,,both raises and lowers. This is usually where the use of absorber springs comes into play (Actually, I should have mentioned this in the "lower push rods" section too)
I use as little (few) springs and as short a spring as I can to achieve "that ultimate feel" that a push pull Emmons can and should have. You'll have to be your own judge on this. Too much spring usually causes too long of travel, mushiness and the loosing of "that feel" or any combination of the three. That's just my own personal opinion and I'm sure there are some who would disagree with me. What ever blows your skirt up is what's best for you.

There a litterly many other aspects to be considered and that I do not have the time or room to go into here Adjusting the pedal stops and lever stops is just one of the areas. In short, I generally look and listen for a distinct "click" when it all bottoms out. If I don't experience this, then I start looking for the reason/s why and make the nessary adjustments.
There's nothing much better than a push pull that has that fast, easy, solid, "play me" feel to it. There's nothing much worse when one lacks these qualities.

One last, but most important thing for this session,,,,FRICTION, FRICTION and more FRICTION,,,,friction is one of the worst enemies of any pedal steel guitar, especially a push pull! Go through your entire mechanical train, starting with the foot pedals and from there to the very end of that "moving" train (or anything that doesn't move that may impede or cause friction) and eleminate as much or all of the friction that you possibly can. Try to do this with as little or no lubricants as you can get by with. Lubricants, when used unwisely or where it is not absoluty needed, can be as big a detrimental cause, especally after a period of time, as anything else that may fall into this catagory.

Hope this helps a little. Just remember to use common sense and don't be afraid to "experiment" a little here and there. Make lots of notes too. It's part of "the learning".
BB

ps: please excuse my butchering of the Queen's English and my country boy way of saying things. That's just me, I guess. Anyways,,,,lots of luck!

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

When setting/adjusting strings that both raise and lower you "MUST" give presidence to the lower when setting the raise.

1'st: Activate the lower and keep it activated solidly by what ever means you can. ie,,,with an elbow, another person, that "third hand" (haha!), or whatever you figure out to hold it in.

2'nd: Bring the locking collar on the raise rod up to the bellcrank and leave just ever so slightly a little room between the collar and bell crank,,,,maybe a 32'nd of an inch.
Now, if you have other changes on this pedal/lever, you must keep in mind to address the one that requires the longest amount of travel first. Other changes that require less travel will be adjusted after you attend to the "long" one. This is usually where the absorber springs come into play. Unless I just have to for some reason, I don't usually put a spring on the long throw. Only on the shorter one and I prefer to use no more spring lengths than is necessary to "balance out the feel" and still maintain a good and solid pedal/lever.
Yes, this means you will be cutting springs to the proper and desired length to achieve this. Sometimes you only need a coil or two and sometimes more. On rare occasions have I ever used a full length "factory" spring.
If you don't have a grinder wheel or a belt sander to "dress down" the cut end of the spring, at least try to make your cut as clean, straight and square as possible and put the finished "factory" end next to the bellcrank.

Next: You are going to have to address the stops. I'll not argue whether or not the raise finger should hit the guitar body or not. I think it's best if it does. (as far as that goes, it's best for the lower fingers to also hit the lower stop screws in the same manner too)
On a Emmons push pull if you have a string that has two or more different changes, then the only one that makes contact with the body, or the lower tuning screw, is the longest or "dominant" one. The other changes are usually adjusted (tuned) with what is commonly called a "half tone tuner". Of coarse, these lesser changes will not make contact with the body or lower tuning screw.
If you want your guitar to have a chance to feel the way it should, this whole area is of the UTMOST IMPORTANCE!!!! Hell, it's all important,,,but this really is. And this applies to any guitar,,,PP or all pull.
Stops tell your pedals and levers "OK, this is as far as I go for me to feel right". Much attention has to be given here.
Ultimately,,,you want the finger to hit the body at the "precise" moment the pedal/lever hits the stop screw. Now, the stop screw is usually the place where you make the adjustments. There are some exceptions to this every once in a while, but I'll not get into that here and now.
With this all done, you had better go back and check everything, making sure the the raises do not inhibit the lowers.
"How do I tell this?", you ask. Well, it's simple! Just look at both of the changer fingers (the raise finger and the lower finger). As the lower finger travels toward and finally comes to rest on the lower tuning screw, the raise finger should move all the way with it. If the raise finger stops moving before the lowering finger makes contact, then you have to move the raise collar away from the raise bellcrank untill it does. The raise is inhibiting the string to lower to the proper pitch. This also usually means that you have to readjust the stop screw.

I know that this all sounds complicated. And it is until you "get the whole picture" in your mind and see these things in action. If you "pay attention", make notes and put a little thought into all of this before hand as well as when you are doing the work, it really becomes pretty simple. Well,,,I hope so anyway.
Just think,,,after a few dozen tries and maybe a hundred or so guitars, you might can say,,,,"Hey, I know how to do this!".

That's all for now.
Later,
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

This S12 E9 was apparently taken apart in the past and put back together wrong, which is the only reason I could afford to buy it. I'm not trying to do anything fancy, just the basic E9 for 3x4. The 6th string problems cleared up when I replaced the wound string with the usual unwound 0.020.

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

It would be great if John can publish some (or ALL) of your explanation on his website so we don't have to look so hard for it.

I use the same method of tuning all pulls on the A and B pedal that you and everyone else uses on the 4th string F. I'll try to explan it later.

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!