quote:

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Reece Anderson is possibly the most prominent player on a universal, but his universal tracks don't sound that different from E9 and C6...

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This has turned into another interesting D10/U12 thread!

The thing I find most interesting is that even some of the greatest players of all time still think in terms of "two different tunings".

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 28 June 2003 at 10:15 AM.]

But I still think Sherman should go with the D10 E9/C6th, simply because of the overwhelming availability of E9th/C6th based tab/video instruction, and he specifically says that he uses tab/video to learn.

If he had a local S12U instructor, along with the exisiting amount of S12U and "6th on 9th" tab/video instruction available, (and based on his self description in the original post), I'd reccomend an S12U.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 28 June 2003 at 10:43 AM.]

FWIW, I have to echo b0b's comment, which I always found funny in the movie, but never REALLY understood until playing double 10 steel (if I can claim that): "Both kinds of music: Country AND Western" two necks, two kinds of music

Also funny that the answer given to the original post is: "A or B? Yes."

[This message was edited by Nicholas Dedring on 28 June 2003 at 11:03 AM.]

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 28 June 2003 at 11:52 AM.]

Since I'm a "late bloomer" and only started in 77,I remember thinking that that picture on the Winnie Winston book that probably got most of us that "started" in that period, started, had an awful lot of strings. Since all of the lessons and tab seemed to be for the "standard" tunings and setups, I let it slip by.

I had always thought that it was rather more complicated, for one, and the Unis that I personally checked out at Sierra were awful hard to get to return right with all those changes on the pedals, three or more instead of two in the E9. That might have been a problem on the earlier ones that I checked out. I figured at least that it would be adressed in the future. That's indeed the way it turned out.

Musically, what could be "easier" than learning the simplest lap steel/dobro tuning, ACEG in octaved with a C and an F on the bottom for "big chords"? Flat the first E, and sharp the second one and you've got a "four chord" One with a big fat seventh seventh, ( with the D on top you have both 6th and 7th, OR a 13th all the way across.) One pedal "major 7ths and 9ths it, one pedal makes it a 7th threeo frets up, another a seventh two frets down. ( Another makes it say " Boo Wah" ( although I never figured out "why".)

I suppose that since Mr Emmons "designed" the modern E9, ( I don't know the exactitude, believe me) and for all I know, the C6, I was taking lessons from one of his biggest 'fans' in 78. At that time, he ( BC) started tuning his top G down to a D ( replacing it with a 15.) It did make it more of a job going for the "top voicing". But it was an "easy way" to get a lot more single string runs without having to move the bar two or three frets all the time on those top strings. I went with it. I know several players that didn't.

Not everything that Mr C "taught me" did I take as "gospel". I tried the top G a while " in secret", but I did find that there were more things that it added than not having a top G detracted. BC changed Almost to Tulsa to acommodate the change for one, and all the "Black Emmons Albums" were done with it, or they fit OK. The changing of BCs earlied "pinky blocking" to Mr E's Ring Finger blocking never stuck with me. To me it's always been easier to "bounce" the single note runs, crossing over, using the "pinky method". I "humored him" while I was taking lessos. Sometimes I noticed I "slipped up" in front of him at the lessons, and was gently "corrected" but then I noticed he "slipped" once in a while to.

That fortunate period in my "playing" was of more use "learning how to work on things". I never was encouraged to get a horseshoe pinky ring, or an ET one with rubies in it, although I did continue playing with cowboy boots with an undershot heel making pedal "pivoting" easier.

Well, time passed.

I came back out here to Ptld in 79, and met Dannny Shields. His guitar was a D11. HE explained that it was just the same as a standard guitar, but he had a G# on the E9, ) or something like that), and an extra D on the C 6. Considering that Mr E had "added a D" to the C6, I felt that it was probably withing the realm of making things "easier". or being able to play "more things".

At this writing, If I could design a change to my SBPIII, that is what it would be.

Now.

The drawbacks I see to a "different tuning".

One: You have trouble finding "tab" for it, or learning a particular "bag". BC, if I remember right, actually taught" a couple guys even "way back then" with "Universals". but it was limited to "what was similar". At that time there was more "difference" than there was now.

Two: Too may "changes"....

Point One:

Well, after meeting Joe Messina years ago, I saw that there are many more "things you can play" with a Uni, on the "C6 Side".

Also that MANY steel players incorporate "more than the standard" changes on Both necks with no appearant "harm" to their techniques. Turns out that my 8/4 setup is considered "simple".

Right off the top of my head, I know that PF has "other than stock" changes, though his CD instructions have no use of more than the standard. This is hopefully something he will take into account in some future time, since now the "Franklin Pedal" is gaining speed to match the "Emmons" top D. I don't know if I'll get that one when I rebuild my "SB Pro", when I plan to at least add a knee lever, either to drop the Bs or G#s. I haven't decided.

I don't want to get so many knee levers that I have to get the "jaws of life" called in to extract me fom my horn if a "fan" falls on me and pins me underneath my Bud..

I'd have to say, that the Larry Bell, for one, or the Dave Van Allen, though I know neither of them personally, and couldn't spot them probably in a crowd (except that DVA would be the guy playing in his socks) that I've given a listen to lots of their stuff. At "first blush", I gave no thought to them "playing Unis". I noticed on "Ashoken Farewell ,there were a couple harmonies that I just "COULDN"T" get, but I found adequate replacement/simplifications. LB's posted stuff sounds like E9 to me on the " fast stuff" OR C6 on others. I just never gave it a thought till I tried "copping" some of it..

Pete Burak is not the only "local guy" that's a "more than adequate" player ( to say the least) with a Uni. Wes Bakken had one in 79 when I came back out here. He's SUCCESSFULLY interfaced a synth to a "piano sound" that honestly, few "real" piano players" tastefully play. He's been doing that particlar "deal" for over 20 years. He did it because the jobs he was playing had alwys played "traditional" country that "had piano in it".

I'd challenge almost anybody to tell "the difference" from their recordings ( Pete, Wes, DVA, or LB) except for stuff that you "can't play" on a 'standard tuning/setup'.

Before the "Lilly Situation" I posted all of Petes most recent works, and I'd certainly like to see who could "figure out" which was only available on a Uni, or "sounded different", "oversimplified", or otherwise ratholed as a "lesser" tuning, or setup.

I'll tell you the truth as I see it (a failing of mine):

( Did I say there was a "point two"?)

At One point in Time, it might have been that there were "certain players" that designed tunings, pedals, and string changes, or additions such as the "C pedal", or the ".015 D string on top of the C6" as a "short cut" from "tradition".

Hell, putting pedals on one "at all" was a shortcut.

Ray Montee had Paul Bigsby put pedals on his 4 neck custom made guitar durn near 50 years ago, ( BWAHahahahaaa ( gotcha Ray)..)

The "point is", that I'm making is that I "stick to the standard" ( which is meaning going to the "tunings and pedal setups" that were set up as "revolutionary" 50 years after the instrument came into being) for a couple of reasons.

One is that it would be too hard for me to "unlearn" a lot of stuff, much like the "bar slanters" continued to "slant" years after they could raise or lower their E's. I see Lloyd Green do it all the time, and learned several from BC in 77-9 though I lazily use them very seldom).

The other is that sadly the "teaching methods" that are the most popular, including the ones I'm using now from PF, don't include "allowances for new changes". In the PF case, ( and I'm aware that "he/you" might be reading this. ( I'm flatttered if so) He doesn't incorporate the innovatin' that he himself has done. I'd like to think "and maybe there is or will be in the near future" a segment that he will "do" on the Fr pedal.( Plenty of "professional guys" have them, even if I do not.)

I still probably won't "get a uni", or be able to build a "Danny Shields" D11 " Harvester", but At this point, I have quit trying to think that "universal players" are doing so soley for "shortcutting" the process.

A GREAT example of a Uni Player of note is Bill Stafford. (Other than it not being a movie a guy'd watch 'with his mom"), the "My Own Private Idaho" River Phoenix movie sound track he did is the BEST example of "E9 Style" Fat, Moving, Melodic, Chords. Thinking of a C6 as a "lower extension" of an E9 in that case is pointless. Theres NO WAY a person could move those chords that low on a C6.

Now, that said, I'm sure there are plenty of examples where C6 "style" playing is done on a Universal.

I'll bet Mr Emmons plays a shitload of stuff on his Universal.

Will I ever get one?

I doubt it.

I think it's take too much work to learn to use "other than standard" changes, Even after Mr Emmons, and his "following", ( read: All the rest of us") have adopted them as "standard".

I gotta be the "worst offender" when it comes to "not doing new stuff. It took me over 20 years to incorporate any effects besides my reverb and the phase shifter in my Session 500 that I've been gigging with for 25 years. I still block with the "Old BC" pinky method, I still jam my nationals on way out on my fingers, and use a Blue Herc, trying my best to make them wear on the "arm side" more then the other edge crossing over everything I can, with the idea of blocking as cleanly as possible. I use ALL of my changes regularly, and haven't changed a thing on any of them.

The PF SPE9 CDs were the first other "method" I'd tried since the two years of BC lessons I took in 77-9. I like the "new stuff" I'm learning.

Hopefully the "Traditional D10s" won't get "left behind" in the " New SG World Order" that started using lowered Bs, G#s or the Fr pedal, but I'll take my chances.

In the meantime, I think what youse guys doing on the Unis is GREAT. Including Mr Emmons.

I'd like to see a thread with examples and a test:

" Uni, or Not":

I think a lot of us would be surprised.

Thanks for the indulgence, and the reading.

OH, and I FINALLY GOT IT!

If a person resorts to "Quantum Physics", a truely structured, and predictable law abiding "science" to explaing "The Random Unfolding of The Universe", which is by definition "The Antithesis" it is like trying to define "Conservatism" in "Liberal Terms".

I knew I would...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 29 June 2003 at 08:27 PM.]

Again, Thanks all;

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

In addition to the musical/theory stuff, a uni has the advantages of slightly less cost, more compact size, lighter weight, fewer strings to change, and the learning simplicity of one neck with everything related. Most of this stuff is irrelevant to a top level pro dedicated to his craft, but could tip the balance for some amateurs and semi-pros. In addition there are potentially more intonation problems with a uni, because of double the number of chords to get in tune. Again this might bother a top pro more.

After a year or so of weighing things out on paper, I came to these conclusions.

The E9th and C6th tunings are completely non related on the D10 and are totally related because they are combined on the universal. THAT became the key issue for me.

1. On the D10 I can add more country E9th changes to all of my 9 floor pedals and nothing I do to the E9th neck other then a little harder pedal action will affect the C6th. Where would I add those same floor pedals to the E9th side of the universal without affecting the 6th stuff? After my studies I didn't see much room for variations on the Universal options.

2. Also, On the D10 I can easily alter the OPEN tuning itself such as put a C# between the E (4TH) and B (5TH) strings instead of having the low B string or add Eb between the E and D strings without any consequence to the C6th neck or vice versa. I couldn't do that to the universal without destroying the 6th side of the tuning.

I would only have to memorize skipping the C# on the E9th neck when I was going for the E and B licks and harmonies.

Adding a string in the middle of the universal would require alot more picking adjustments because both tunings are combined, therefor one tunings gain may negate the others.

It is the complication of this same issue, that is exactly why, there is no D string on the universal. Even though the E9th side of the tuning would be more complete with the D string. It is omitted because of the complex picking restructuring it causes within the 6th side of the tuning.

So, to utilize the most possibilities out of both tunings when they are combined into one universal tuning is an extremely delicate balancing act. The open tuning, its pedal changes along with their positions, required to make it work correctly are so fixed. This leaves little room to experiment with.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 29 June 2003 at 12:58 PM.]

Speaking for myself, having playing D-12's for over 30 years, I have tried both a 12 and a 13 string Universal to try to eliminate some weight. No matter how I set them up, the Universals were always a compromise. I had to sacrifice changes and thus licks and chords that I had on my D-12 simply because there wasn't enough room in the changer or on the body to put the changes I am accustomed to. By the time I installed all the changes I could, the weight didn't decrease much at all, and the combinations were limited by having to hold a knee lever in to play in 6th mode.

One simple example is the the 6th string G# on E9 which corresponds to the 4th string A on C6. On E9, I raise it to A and lower it to G/F# with a half stop, and a split to give a G with the 2nd pedal. On C6, I raise it to B on the 4th and 7th pedals, and raise it to Bb and lower it to Ab on knee levers. The A-Bb corresponds to the 2nd pedal G#-A on E9, BUT if it's not on a lever on a Universal, you end up using both feet to combine it with other 6th pedals. To accomplish this on a Universal would require a changer with four raises and there is still the problem of where to physically put the knee lever change.

If you had a guitar with more than three raises, you could go to two sets of left knee levers, but that eliminates the ease of seamlessly changing playing modes.

My D-12's give me an extended E9 to simulate six string guitar licks, and let me have both the high G and D on C6, and I have yet to run out of raise or lower changer holes on either neck.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 9&9=-
-=Emmons D-12 push pull 9&4 (soon to be 9&9)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880

Thanks, I am enjoying this. I hope no feelings get hurt along the way. I am only against playing a universal for my particular needs, not anyone elses. I have in the past and am once again considering a D12. I think I have the C6th neck figured out.

I should start another thread for that subject because my opinion about the future of the instrument will certainly bring about contraversy.

Jim,

I find it interesting that players like yourself see the roadblocks within single tunings. I am so frustrated with all the tunings including C6th and E9th which is why I will never limit my direction to one.

Paul

Edited the last paragraph for clarity.

[This message was edited by Franklin on 30 June 2003 at 05:53 AM.]

I also feel b0b hit in on the head when he said,

"Actually, I find Reece's phrasing to be very different from most E9 and C6 players. He has a very "universal" approach to the instrument that never really sounds like E9 or C6, to my ears, anyway."

I find Maurice's playing to be among the most unique and original approaches to the PSG. He is indeed a master at the "U" concept. I feel certain he is never aware that it is two or more tunings. He simply uses the open tuning (and changes) to imbelish flawlessly his mastery of the 12 string.

To go along with Paul's thinking, I must agree with his analysis of the U-12. IF I had to rely on the standard U-12 copedent, I simply would not play it. There are just too many sacrifices (for me) coming from a D-10 background.

That is why, until I found a setup that would satisfy ALL of my wants, I didn't go to it.

It was not until I hit upon it one day, that I decided to make the switch. Praise Jesus I did, because it has brought me satisfaction the D-10 NEVER did. Or ever would IMO.

I think we've lost touch of our reccomendation to Sherm, though.
With respect to the original post, it sounds like an S12U might be a valid reccomendation.

I'm thinking a Keyless, 7x4 Newman Setup, with B6th Change Lock.

Now can we start reccomending brands?!

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 30 June 2003 at 09:59 AM.]

I find the A and B pedals to be useful in the 6th tuning context individually. The B pedal is the equivalent of the A to Bb knee lever on C6 and the A pedal raises the tonic to the 2nd/9th. Together they provide an additional 6th chord position 2 frets up from the home position for the 6th tuning (e.g., B6 on fret 2). I use this a lot for both single string and chord playing and miss it when I play 10-string C6. My friend Jim mentioned the B pedal not being as useful on a pedal in the B6 context, and that is true, but I primarily use it to raise the 6th to b7 out of open B or to suspend the 4th out of open E and those positions (E to D# and the C6/B6 P6 change) are on knee levers for me. I could use two feet and get all the combinations but have found other ways to get those chords (e.g., the b13 or aug5 with P5 or the b9 or dim with P8). One difference between Jim's position and mine is that I've been playing a S-12 as long as he's been playing a D-12 and it's natural to want to stay with what you're used to. I tried my darndest to play a D-10 for almost a year and, like Jim, went back to what I know best. And, like Carl, I would not be very comfortable with the stock universal Jeff Newman teaches.

Another thing I like about having the tunings superimposed is that I can see relationships between C6 and E9 that I would never see on a double neck. For example, the F lever or A+F position is the same as that for what's usually on P5 of C6. In fact, you can substitute the F lever for the Eb lever raising the 2nd/9th to the 3rd for a chord variation, 9th chord going to pure Dom7 with the moving note in the middle.

There are more of these synergies than I have the time nor the inclination to write here. I don't have to justify anything. Either you can play or you can't. All 12 notes of the chromatic scale are on all the tunings. Everything is a compromise. I don't need any other player's blessing to play what I play. It's as simple as that. I like what I play and how I play it. I can cop from existing E9 and C6 literature or wing it on my own. I bought Paul's E9 and C6 speedpicking courses and was surprised that most of it was very similar melodically. I found that I could play some of the C6 passages more easily using the A and B pedals. There's more than one way to skin a cat and I guess I'm just gonna have to skin it my way. I always have.

Beam me up, Scotty.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 30 June 2003 at 09:47 AM.]

I kind of like the tone I get out of my Sho~Bud. Maybe if they made one...

(ducks....)

I could have sworn Jeff was lowering the 2nd string to a D with his "E" knee lever. This apparently is something new. And Larry is probably correct. I would imagine there is a half stop on that lever.

Edit: Then again, The "E" lever on his E9th chart is a Half Stop with tuning listed for both notes.

Note: The overlay of the tunings ala S12U presents no compromises when interpolated to/from D10.

No LKR.
No P4.

I think Jeff might be on to something here that will help alot of people "get up to speed" as they say.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 30 June 2003 at 08:51 PM.]

quote:

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I have in the past and am once again considering a D12. I think I have the C6th neck figured out.

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So for me it comes down to this - if you are going to chase the pros in commercial country and Western swing (not so commercial but there's still lots of it around), and every new riff they come up with, a D10 or D12 is clearly the way to keep up. And I don't mean for that to sound derogatory in any way. I love that stuff and the great guys who do it. They, and others like them who came before, invented the pedal steel and are its life-blood. They are my heroes and have my utmost admiration.

But here's me sitting in trying to play some backup in a typical group around here (not at all commercial). They want a golden oldies country number, then a Western swing number, then an old jazz standard or show tune, then some country rock, then some blues, then some rock, then back to country. Or I'm sitting at home listening to Coltrane, or Ornette Coleman, or Cecil Taylor, or just whatever jazz number from any era just came on the radio and I decide to sit down at my pedal steel and see what I can get with it (which I would NEVER do in public). Then after that I put on a Chicago blues album. Then I try some Web Pierce '50s classics. Then finally before going to bed I feel like seeing what I can do with some Bach or Mozart.

Just the initial decision on every song of which neck to go to on a D10 would drive me crazy. People who play other instruments don’t have to think about that. They just pick up their instrument and play whatever the song is. And with my limited abilities it is immensely helpful that all this stuff has some commonalities, especially if I'm always on the same one neck. I just have to push it in different directions, depending upon the style and era of the song. I have come to love it that the Universal is...unh... oh yeah, Universal.

Okay, so I can't load on quite as many pedals and knees, or change the string tunings. Paul is right, the Uni is a tight ship, and if you change one thing it effects everything. But I can live with that (and understand why he can't). Sure I could add another left knee cluster and a couple more pedals that I could reach if my left knee moved over to the middle. But to me that defeats the purpose of a Universal. You’re now playing two separate tunings, you might as well go all the way and have a whole C6 neck on a D10 or D12. A better solution may be to have 8 or 9 staggered knee levers like Larry Bell, and probably eventually I’ll try some of those.

But at some point some of us just have to say, “Okay, that’s enough for now.” I need to forget the extra stuff and stay focused on what I now have and learn what I can do with it all. Believe it or not, some guys don’t use any pedals or knees at all, and they play way better than me in any kind of music.

So I think I’m just a Universal kind of guy. I can get enough classic country and swing sounds for my noncommercial needs (regrettably this may change if Paul Franklin and others keep pushing the E9 envelope with new changes). And equally important, all the other stuff seems easier for me to find on a Uni. One singer I backup does a knock out version of My Funny Valentine. I’m grabbing a chord from E9 and another from B6 all the way through that thing. If I was on one neck or the other, I’d feel like I was playing with one hand tied behind by back. The Uni loves that kind of stuff.

A couple of final thoughts to throw out. People seem to usually think of a Uni as an E9 with B6 stuff added. But another way to see its possibilities is to think of it as a B6 which has the entire E9 available by working a single knee lever. Need a straight chord to resolve a fat B6 type chord? Just let go of the Eb lever and grab it from any of 10 different places on the E9 neck.

I would think a lot of non-peddlers used to 6th, 7th and 9th tunings could get comfortable very quickly with a Universal. With the Eb lever held, you can play it like a no-peddle 6th neck. If you press the B pedal it becomes a 7th neck. Let go all knees and pedals and it is a 9th neck. You can get tons of no-peddle stuff with just this one knee lever and one pedal.