A little about myself. I am 57 years old, single, and I can afford about $4500 for the guitar alone. About 1988 I paid about $600 for a D-10 Sho-Bud 8 pedals + four horizontal levers. I traded that in for a D-10 Mullens 8 pedals + four horizontal + one vertical. Both were E-9th and C-6th tunings. I don’t have any formal music training. I have never played anywhere outside the house. I could perform major and minor scales. I could play tunes both by ear, by notation, and by tablature. I didn’t take lessons except by video and tape. So any ideas about which style guitar?

Thanks

My first purchase was a U-12, which became an Extended E9 because I liked the D on the 9th string sound, which is not there on the Universal setup (in most cases).

I now have a D-10 and am much happier about it because I get the full C6 neck and pedals, as well as the full E9 sound, pedals and knees.

I will probably never go back to the U-12 because I like the distinctiveness of each neck's sound and the differences in the mental approach for each tuning.

I can see how the U-12 is popular, but I am comfortable with my choice.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

[This message was edited by Bill Fulbright on 24 June 2003 at 06:24 PM.]

Whichever way you decide to go don't hesitate to ask questions, there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum.

I played a D-10 for almost 40 yrs and decided to go U-12. There is NOTHING that could ever get me to go back to a D-10. I simply love my U-12.

Having said that, I would also add that there is NO way I would play the standard U-12 setup. It is too limited, when comparing a D-10.

That is why I waited until I found a copedent that would completely satisfy every thing I want and "have to have".

I found it and it will be with me always.

But You are not me. And for you, it may not be the way to go. D-10's are overwhelmingly the most popular. And some, like our forum leader love "Extended E9th" setups.

So best to give it a lot (and I mean a LOT) of thought before you plunk down upwards of five grand. I studied it for over 30 years before I made the change, not saying it should take that long for anyone. But I am a snail when deciding to do something sometimes.

Thanks to my precious Savior, it has paid off handsomely.

May God bless you in your quests,

carl

[This message was edited by Dennis Detweiler on 24 June 2003 at 07:52 PM.]

Buddy plays it in D on C6 with the hammers and pulls to the open strings from the 2nd fret.

I play it the same way but it's in C#. Inquiring minds want to know. I've been playing that song for 25 years on the universal but never realized you could do it in E, so keyboard players always hated me. Care to elaborate?

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 June 2003 at 10:13 PM.]

How do you see the U-12 being flawed??

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

I am not sure, but are there U-12 PP's?

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 June 2003 at 05:35 AM.]

And, yes, David, there are U-12 push-pulls. I play one. I've been playing U-12 in one form or other since '75 or '76. A fellow named John Helak published several articles in the PSGA newsletter about that time and I was playing Maurice's tuning on the front neck of a D-12. Jeff Newman started teaching it a bit later, if I recall correctly.

Dennis - cool! Seems more awkward to me, jumping over a bunch of strings, but it can be done. So you play the rest out of the Eb lever position on 5 (or 17 for the bridge) and just the open string stuff in the head out of the D6 position? What do you do about the ending tag lick? I'd love to hear you play it. I'm intrigued, since I rarely (if ever) use that position.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 June 2003 at 08:22 AM.]

Scott,
By seriously flawed I mean:
1. Intonation/tuning: I tune beats out and I can tune my C6 neck to how I like it and my E9 neck to how I like it. The U12 involved to many compromises.
2. Tone: D10's sound better. Fuller stronger mids. There is a noticeable difference within the same maker of steel.

3. Set up flexibility and options. I can change something on one neck/tuning without screwing up the other.
4. Logic of learning: On the D10 each tuning lays there on each neck in its basic form for me to learn and play whatever I want on. With the U12 I need to add another layer of complication to get at the music.
There is a tendency among U12 players that never learned the C6 neck on a D10 to bail out on the B6 side of there tuning and revert to the E9 side.

Larry,
The Bb6 is cool because it doesn't pretend to be an E9 as much as the E9/B6 pretends to be an E9.

Another thing is that with a standard C6 you already can play E9 licks if you take the time to learn the tuning. And there are plenty of guys that can cover swing gigs on a standard E9. I watched Ricky Davis keep up with some guitar player named Red on an S10 E9 sho-bud and not miss a beat.
With a D10 I have 2 fully flexible tunings with very different sounds and voicings to play whatever sort of music I want on.

For some the U12 works great. Guys like Joe Wright and Michael Johnstone can take every point I've made and prove the opposite. Whatever works is cool with me.

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

If you are going to learn mainly by tab and video, get a setup that is as close to the copedant used in the tab or video.

Let us know what you decide!

FWIW, I play S12U, but if I went to a double neck I'd have to have a D12 with E9 and B6 tunings.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 25 June 2003 at 01:15 PM.]

Depending on who you talk too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 June 2003 at 10:46 AM.]

Back to your question

Please read http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

which is found in the links/articles above.

read it with an open mind and them decide. All the pros/cons are discussed.

I am new to the pedal steel, coming from no pedals and regular geetars. I was/am familiar with the x6th tunings. A6, C6, G6, E6.... So going to a B6 or Bb6 was no big deal. Now I am learning the E9 or Eb9 positions, and... all on the same neck!

I have only 12 strings to learn, bar hand and pick hand don't have to change necks, and my eyes only have the same 12 strings to look at.

"Since I have no prior experience with a double neck psg, I chose the easy way out".
I think I am learning faster with so many varibles removed.

Ron

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Stringmaster T8, Benoit 8, National Tricone, MSA U12

However, you will find on this forum and elsewhere that people who play other types of music (rock, classical, gospel-blues, avant-guard jazz) prefer all sorts of steels from 6- or 8-string lap steels to 12- and 14-string pedal steels in a variety of tunings and copedents (and some also stick with the classic D10 setup). So in a large sense the decision depends on the direction you see your music going.

I play a little of all the types of music mentioned above, but have no ambitions in commercial country or Western swing. Several months ago when I decided to move beyond 10-string E9, I got a good used 12-string extended E9 and a good used S12 universal. I thought I would prefer the ext. E9, but I found that the grips on the lower ext. E9 strings were too complicated. The universal was much easier to adjust to, and you can get the low D with levers on both the E and B strings with cool sounding movement. Plus you get all the B6 stuff, and the unique new stuff using E9 strings, pedals and knees on B6, and vice versus. I also like the idea that on a universal the B6 stuff is found at the E9 IV chord fret, so the two necks are related musically in a way that E9 and C6 are not. For me a universal provides a life-time of learning in all musical genres.

I have not encountered insurmountable problems with intonation. I tune the straight major and minor chords in E9 to JI by ear, so they sound sweet. As with 10-string E9 the A pedal-F lever combination is a compromise. I only use this in transit, and don't linger on it. Also slanting the bar helps. The whole point of going to the B6 stuff is to play dissonant jazz chords, for which perfect JI is not needed. So if you play the straight chords in E9 mode and stick with the fat chords in B6 mode it all seems to work fine.

Gotta run, more later.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 26 June 2003 at 04:15 PM.]

On the other hand, you can get new stuff on a universal that is not possible on 10-string E9 (especially low stuff) or C6. It is simply a new tuning (well it was new in the '70s) that can take you into new areas beyond traditional E9 and C6. That is good or bad depending on how close you want to stick to the traditional pedal steel genres of commercial country and Western swing.

Beyond the musical aspects, there are portability and cost issues. Again, for professionals these are not serious issues - they put up with these problems because it is their job. For semi-pros and amateurs these are factors. I like the fact that for practicing and gigging around town I can just pick up my S12U and put it inside the tailgate of my minivan, without having to break it down. That would be a strain with most D10s, although the newer ones are getting very light. But if you only play at home, a D10 or even D12 is no problem.

There are two schools of thought on what to do with a universal. One school, primarily people with extensive C6 background, load up a universal to duplicate C6 as closely as possible. They want a seperate middle knee lever cluster for B6, 5 or 6 B6 pedals, and a locking Eb lever. They play in E9 mode or B6 mode, and don't much mix the two, the same as double-neck players. The only thing they gain with a universal is a smaller, lighter instrument.

The other school foreswears a locking Eb lever, and uses only two knee lever clusters. They don't think in terms of E9 or B6, but see it all as merely different related chords on the one neck. The few conveniences they give up seem to be more than balanced by all the new stuff they gain and the fluidity of having everything on one neck available at all times in an instant. This is great for beginners to learn in this integrated manner from the start, but is tough on old C6 dogs that have a hard time learning new tricks.

And in fairness to Buddy Emmons, I believe he said he "might" choose a universal if he was just starting out. It's a hypothetical even he can't know for sure. Maybe he would have started on a uni and later switched to a double-neck.

The way I'm thinking now, I could never go back to a 10-string anything. If portability wasn't an issue, I would go to a D12 with a univeral tuning on the near neck, and a Sacred Steel gospel-blues tuning on the far neck. E9, C6 and Universal are all a little too complicated for speed picking blues and rock.

Well those are my humble opinions for now.

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Student of the Steel, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano, Casio keyboard. You make it, I'll play it (sort of)

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

I played primarily E9 on a D10 for 25 years. Some C6th but not in any traditional western swing/jazzy sense.

I bought a U12 five years ago, and have used it as my primary instrument since, with the caveat that I would play a D10 if I could find a classic ZB Custom, which I did last year.

I now am "cross platform" to use the Mac/PC analogy. I have learned more about the relationships of the chords available on U12 so when i go to the 10 string C6th I am more fluent.
When I play U12 I look at it as a REALLY extended E9th I guess, one big-a$$ tuning.

I can make both sound virtually the same in E9th stylings, but with more flexibility to go elsewhere on a whim on th U12.

I agree with Larry Bell's assessment, and do not have the tuning issues Bob Hoffnar indicates because I tune straight up to a tuner, not tuning the beats out harmonics (99.9% of the time) But I also agree with Bob Hoffnar that "Whatever works is cool with me." He has one of the most open minded approaches to playing steel that I know of, and if he want's to play onsome of the "wierd" stuff he gets called for on a D10, great. I'd probably take the U12 to the same gig... if I got those calls

quote:

---

The way I'm thinking now, I could never go back to a 10-string anything. If portability wasn't an issue, I would go to a D12 with a univeral tuning on the near neck, and a Sacred Steel gospel-blues tuning on the far neck. E9, C6 and Universal are all a little too complicated for speed picking blues and rock.

Well those are my humble opinions for now.

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You are sooooo correct. The reason I don't switch has nothing to do with my starting out on a D10. The universal seems to appeal to those who are not very fond of learning two different tunings.

Sherman,

I would get the universal on a D10 frame for tonal reasons.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 June 2003 at 05:17 PM.]

But I can't help but wonder what licks a great inovator like Paul could cook up on a universal if he lived with one for awhile. I think Calvin's thinking is a self-fulfilling prophecy. There really haven't been any highly visible top pro inovators who have shown us what a universal can do. I don't think that is proof of limitations of the universal, I think it is just something that hasn't happened.

Reece Anderson is possibly the most prominent player on a universal, but his universal tracks don't sound that different from E9 and C6 - in fact he plays the same stuff on E9 and C6. The pedal steel is a difficult and even scary instrument to try to play. It makes people trying to do what the top pros do conservative and afraid to deviate from the path of the top pros. The universal will not really compete with D10 in popularity until there is a top pro inovator who dazzles us on universal the way Emmons and Chalker and now Paul have done on D10. It will have to be new sounds that you can't get on E9 and C6.