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Author
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Topic: I Hate That Pedal Steel Lick...
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Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 31 October 2003 08:57 AM
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I'm getting pretty tired of octaves....Sus4 chords especially without the fifth are wearing pretty thin.. They show a lack of comittment. Root/Fifths overused too for the same reason.. I'm think that single notes, on the melody line, and never doubled, are the way to offend the least.. maybe sneaking a major third in once in a while for a show of committment.  EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 31 October 2003 at 09:22 AM.] |
Nicholas Dedring
Member From: Brooklyn, New York, USA
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posted 31 October 2003 09:15 AM
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It seemed when I've watched someone use that "Ricochet" thing that it's just a means to move a number of five frets or however many up, as opposed to a "lick". For that purpose, it's hard to argue with... plus, there's a difference between something that is simply done, and something done well... I loved the sound of that transition on Lloyd's recent album. |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 31 October 2003 09:58 AM
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Tell you what, if you're just tired of playing that lick then you can try doing it backwards and see what you come up with. Lloyd has this cool lick that's going up chromatically in Jukebox Charlie I've been fooling with. Pretty slick there and something I hadn't heard him do before. The band is just going to have to hear it for the next 10 or 12 years I guess. This guy's a wealth of knowledge guys and you too Paul. Finally a thread with some controversy! |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 31 October 2003 10:16 AM
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We are all working with the same eleven notes in varying octaves. All these licks are just a different way of arranging them and the timing in which we express them. I
am very appreciative of the licks that Lloyd,
Buddy, Paul, Hal, Pete Drake, Tom, Mooney,
Bud Isaacs and so many others have left out there for the rest of us to use and build on. For several years I was doing Kareoke recordings and had to copy each potential hit song and Paul Franklin sure put some tough stuff out to copy and that was only his "simple" stuff. There can't be enough good words spoken about that guy. He is very near the top of my list of respected players of which Buddy is at the top. I use the ricochet lick to the max on Dobro mainly just a single note with a single ricochet note and it certainly adds a lot of flavor.
I use it on ocassion on steel sometimes just a single repeat of the first note and sometimes 2, 3, 5 or whatever I feel like doing. I love the lick. I particulary like the F# to G# pull on the first string but try to keep the move subtle and not over expressed. Even more so I like it in conjunction with the 2nd string Eb to E. If you use this change with another string it would be a problem to use a F# to G and a slant to get the G# so I like the ability to pull the first string a whole tone. Paul has at times pulled the 6th string 1 1/2 tones and lowered the 6th string 2 1/2 tones to get some very different and interesting and hard to figure out and duplicate "licks".
Back in the early '60s there was a Gospel
DJ radio program and the theme instrumental was lightning fast steel single string stuff
that completely knocked me out. It was the first time I ever heard the E9th speedpicking that is still so popular today and I made it a point to dig and find out who the player was and it was a very young Paul Franklin. I would turn that program on and get in the floor and go into hysterics. I have to this day never heard anything that fast. I realize this is not a thread about Paul but what the heck... I am a Paul Franklin fan and anything he plays is great as far as I am concerned. The last St Louis convention I attended, Lloyd played flawlessly and I thought was the best there to my notion. He played "I Can See Clearly Now" and the 1st string F# to G# pull was very prominent through out the song and if the he was only pullling the F# to G I could not tell it. I became a Lloyd Green fan that day. Neither Paul nor Lloyd need to worry about their licks. Just keep 'em coming so the rest of us will have something to struggle over. You guys are great!!
Jerry |
John McGann
Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 31 October 2003 10:27 AM
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quote:
We are all working with the same eleven notes in varying octaves.
I seem to get about 18 or so notes in the octave, but I am practicing hard to reduce it down to 12 I first heard that ricochet lick on steel on Ricky Scaggs "No One Can Hurt You Like someone You Love", and I thought (and still think) it is incredibly emotional and sounds so cool![This message was edited by John McGann on 31 October 2003 at 10:29 AM.] [This message was edited by b0b on 02 November 2003 at 06:28 AM.] |
Terry Edwards
Member From: Layton, UT
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posted 31 October 2003 10:51 AM
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Wow, I was just thinking about that lick again as I was reading and the Buddy Holly tune "Peggy Sue" popped into my head. Buddy Holly was doing "that lick" vocally!! T-T-T-T-Terry |
John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 31 October 2003 12:05 PM
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quote:
I wonder who Django got it from
From Lester Young.
-John |
Mike Weirauch
Member From: Harrisburg, Illinois**The Hub of the Universe
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posted 31 October 2003 12:41 PM
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quote:
...and I've seen Mike Weirauch's writing..I know he didn't ghost-write a word of it..
After reading the above statement, I have decided to take the money I had saved for steel guitar lessons and instead enroll in the "Bill Hankey Creative Writing School.
quote:
I apologize for all the spelling and punctuation mistakes
It looked OK to me Paul but then again the creative writing class hasn't started yet so I cannot make a professional assumption like that until then. |
Stephen Gregory
Member From:
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posted 31 October 2003 01:50 PM
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I love every thing that Lloyd and Paul have played over the years. It is amazing that the level of jealousy toward these two remarkable gentlemen just seems to go on and on. If their critics were 1/10th as talented as either one of them, their comments might be almost credible. This stuff is like slow pitch softball players critiquing Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams or Willie Mays. Let it rest. |
Jerry Gleason
Member From: Eugene, Oregon
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posted 31 October 2003 02:35 PM
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quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder who Django got it from
------------------------------------------------------------------------From Lester Young.
-John
Or, more likely, from Charlie Christian, who used it years earlier. That's probably where Chuck Berry picked it up. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 31 October 2003 03:42 PM
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Just one minute there, Mr. Steele...
How could a Sax Man get lick? |
John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 31 October 2003 07:11 PM
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It was one of Lester's signature embellishments to find two different fingerings for the same note, and alternate back and forth between them at lightning speed, displaying the obvious different in timbre between the two... much like a stringed instrument player playing the same note on different strings.
I'd still guess it was Lester, who was recording when Charlie Christian was still a bass player in Texas.
-John
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Marc Weller
Member From: Upland, Ca. 91784
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posted 31 October 2003 11:19 PM
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.[This message was edited by Marc weller on 31 October 2003 at 11:23 PM.] |
Niklas Widen
Member From: Uppsala, Sweden
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posted 01 November 2003 12:19 AM
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quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder who Django got it from
------------------------------------------------------------------------From Lester Young.
-John
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Or, more likely, from Charlie Christian, who used it years earlier. That's probably where Chuck Berry picked it up.
Yeah, I guess that's right...I remember reading somewhere that Chuck was a huge Charlie Christian fan...Still think Django did it best though! /Nicke W |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 01 November 2003 01:41 AM
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Smart Move Mike W  |
John McGann
Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 01 November 2003 05:45 AM
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Horn players call it "false fingering". |
Chris Schlotzhauer
Member From: Colleyville, Tx. USA
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posted 01 November 2003 07:45 AM
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What? The echo lick is banned????
I just got on here this morning and saw this. Oh my god....I used that lick last night. I am now in hiding... |
Andy Volk
Member From: Boston, MA
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posted 01 November 2003 08:00 AM
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I'd guess that Django came up with it on his own way before he would have heard Lester. It's just a natural lick that falls under the hand for string instruments. I wouldn't be surprised to hear it in Armstrong or Eddie Lang's music. T-Bone Walker and many 1940's swing guitarists used it as did Tal Farlow in the 50s, wo\ho used his tremendous reach to finger it on adjacent strings for a manual chorus effect.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 01 November 2003 at 08:01 AM.] |
Roger Snively
Member From: Washington C.H.,Ohio USA
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posted 01 November 2003 08:05 AM
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I use the 1st and 3rd(same note) along with the 2nd and 4th string (same note) combos a lot and I like it!. L. Green and J. Douglas, to name a few, can sound better playing "out of tune" than most of us can in tune. And if they've got ANY licks that I can copy, I'll do it! I'm just like a deer at a salt block, I'll take all the licks I can get. |
Johnny Cox
Member From: The great state of Texas
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posted 01 November 2003 08:59 AM
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Terry, thank you for the compliment I am glad you enjoyed my tape. I do wish Lloyd would speak for himself though as oppossed to have anyone else do that. After all, so many of us have looked up to him through the years. I also wish that we would not say things on this forum that we would not say to a persons face, this is the downside of the forum and the main reason I and others choose to be silent most of the time. ------------------
Johnny Cox (Team Millennium)
www.johnnyandjoancox.com
www.msapedalsteels.com
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Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 01 November 2003 11:03 AM
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I hate "Forum Bashing".
It is the members that make this Forum what it is, no more, no less.If more people contributed positively to discussions, instead of joining in later to only critize the discussion, the nay-sayers would be even more in the minority. Sorry to stray off topic, but this happens all too often and really bugs me.  |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 01 November 2003 11:46 AM
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quote:
This "lick" takes absolutly no talent or expertise to play
Finally, something that I can master! ...(in about 8 months) |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 01 November 2003 11:47 AM
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quote:
..that heretical lick. -Lloyd Green-
Reading this whole thread was worth it for those three words. I again reviewed the Seven Deadly Sins, and find "Heresy" nowhere. Long before it appeared on the list, I'd chose Complexity anyhow. I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Louis Armstrong as the source of a major amount of "jazz phrazes" like This One.. I'm sure he got them somewhere too.. All can probably traced back to one of the Muses. Herbert, the Heretical one.. Now if we could just figure out where THIS ONE came from.... EJL
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Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 01 November 2003 01:53 PM
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And I thought Perlowin was touchy...
BUT SERIOUSLY, I remember reading an interview with Keith Richards years ago, where he said,"There's only been one song written, and Adam and Eve wrote it."
Except for mechanical function, who can lay claim to ANY lick? On a PSG, a lever and/or pedal can be rigged to make a particular move. But a line of notes, or a chord? We ain't come up with nothin'!
That being said, Lloyd Green, Paul Franklin, and Bobbe Seymour are ALL great players, as we all already know.
And the only reason us guitar players started using an unwound third string, was to bend it up to the same pitch as the second string.
And Carl, you're a good guy, but you're judging again. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 02 November 2003 07:03 AM
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quote:
It's called a signature lick I believe and don't we all wish we had been the first to use it?
I have signature licks too, but I call them 'ruts'. quote:
I wish Lloyd were a member of this forum so he could post freely and at will.
Lloyd has been banned from posting here. He's such a troublemaker!
Seriously, I've offered Lloyd a free membership, but so far he has declined to take it. Maybe someone closer to him can talk him into it. All it takes is an email.
Back to the subject... I like "the lick" when used as a connector between phrases at different positions. I don't use it, though, because I don't really think of it. It's not one of my 'ruts'.
As for the F# to G# change, few people understand its use as well as Paul Franklin. I don't have it on my guitar because I'm afraid of falling into a 'rut' with it, as so many amateur players do.
Nobody understands the potential of E9th bar slants on the top strings better than Lloyd Green. I haven't 'done the math', but I tend to trust his analysis on this. I haven't heard any F#-G# licks on the radio that couldn't be done with slants and F#-G.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
Mike Cass
Member From: Nashville,Tn. U.S.A.
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posted 02 November 2003 01:09 PM
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a couple of things;
first, i like LLoyds richocchet(sp?)lick, even though it may not be indigenous to psg,(referring to the Chuck Berry mention).
If youve never tried to play it, Id recommend some left hand fret to fret exercises before attempting it.Second, as for the F# to G# raise on string one; its a nice change however one decides to use it. Thanx to Buddy Gene for coming up with it before he moved back to Nashville from Ca. around '74-'75. (listen to "Pins & Needles" on Darrell McCall's "Lily Dale" album).
Perhaps the change would make more sense to some & help diminish the boredom factor prieviously expressed by others if the move is combined with the 2nd string 1/2 tone raise as PF uses it sometimes. Double unisons are something that no other instrument is really capable of as far as i know. Additionally, Pete Burak played me an interesting twist on the string 1 & 4 unison the other day in a speed picking lick; very swift.
Ive found that the best thing for me however, is to split up the strings 1 & 2 changes. Since I already had it on my guitar from the early 70's(ala Buddy),adding the 2nd string change separate from the 1st string offered me many more possibilities for chromatic ideas, chords, etc.
After a time & due to the addition of other changes i felt were more benefical, I combined the strings 1 & 2 changes on 1 knee lever. Ive regretted it ever since, but im out of knees(anatomically spreaking) so any ideas as to another placement for it would be welcomed...and keep 'er clean, boys :-) mc ps. i wouldnt argue with John Steele on matters of jazz & be-bop:-)[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 02 November 2003 at 01:14 PM.] [This message was edited by Mike Cass on 02 November 2003 at 01:16 PM.] |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 02 November 2003 02:09 PM
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b0b.... I should explain that I raise the F#'s to G and then to G# on the same lever. The F# to G mathematics are ALL there at the half stop. I trust your mathematical skills are more than sufficient to see why there would be more variables this way. Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 03:16 PM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 07:15 PM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 07:16 PM.]
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 02 November 2003 03:41 PM
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Thanks for clarifying that, Paul. |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 02 November 2003 03:44 PM
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Bob...I keep on trying to add something but the edit function is stubborn.[This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 03:50 PM.] |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 02 November 2003 04:16 PM
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Well my "Aha Moments" happen more than to some, but I just had a "big one". It's the upside of being a bush league bonehead I guess..In being limited somewhat by "stock changes" on My old ProIII I find that that especially the lower F# to G# brings in a lot of things besides the "double" note lick. It's also (duh..) the 6th to maj7 with the pedals down. ( A C6th "sound").. and an easier way to do "bakersfield" low comping. Rather than having to install a half stop mechanism I set mine so that the top f# only goes up to G, as standard and it's pull "stop" works as a good "half stop" for feeling the lower one. If it works well and I can see using it more on the chromatics it won't be that hard to fab a double stop. I'm going to try it for a couple weeks and see how it plays onstage. (BTW, besides the standards and the "Ricky Scaggs" uses, theres the "Chase each other round the room" lick and the "Way I am" intro.) Nice. Thanks! EJL |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 02 November 2003 06:17 PM
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What is "the Ricochet lick" that you all are getting so worked up about?
Sorry, but I don't understand the text descriptions in this thread.Jerry Roller posted" quote:
Man Terry, I love that ricochet lick. Loyd
even has a Dobro instrumental totally based on that lick I believe the name of the song is "Ricochet".
Jerry
but I can't find it on WinMX, nor at Rebel and Ricky's.
Jerry further says quote:
It is a pretty heavily used lick these days.
so can somebody point me to one of those places where it is heavily used so I can hear what all the fuss is about?
BTW thanks to you all, especially the underappreciated prima donnas, for this amusing thread.
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Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 02 November 2003 08:58 PM
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Earnest, Lloyds instrumental "Ricochet" on Dobro did the ricochet lick by hitting first string open, slide into second string 3rd fret, slide into 3rd string 7th fret, slide into 4th string 12th fret, then went on with the melody. As you can see it is just a lick in which you hit a note and move down a string and hit the same note, down another string and hit the same note and continue as long as you want to or until you run out of strings. On "Ricochet" it is a series of the same note "D" hit on first, second, third and forth strings. Often times the lick is done in a rapid strings of notes. Junior Knight is a master of the lick. It is really not as easy to do and make it sound really good as it might seem. I hope this helps.
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 02 November 2003 at 09:00 PM.] [This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 02 November 2003 at 09:01 PM.] |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 02 November 2003 09:02 PM
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Earnest - the best example I know is Lloyd's extended 'outro' on Skagg's 'Nothing Can Hurt You' a few years ago (a series of successive root notes played in different positions on the neck - the change in position/string, etc, and the resulting variation in tone lending the phrase a certain piquancy).I think his work on that track is among the best E9th playing I know - that 'device' is used to great effect and is a focal point of the piece. I'm still trying to figure out how someone would find it irksome! RR |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 03 November 2003 07:56 AM
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Having trouble finding out why it is so erksome? Actually, the lick doesn't bother me played very tastefully when it makes sense and fits the melody but unfortunately, as has been proven here, everybody seems to love this lick so well that everybody seems to be playing it indiscriminately in every song they know.
Another steel guitar player and I went into a restaurant called the LongHorn steak house where they play albums of present singers of fame. During one complete CD we counted the lick being played 21 times on this one CD.
This is why I don't like this lick. I do not remember Lloyd Green ever playing this lick but perhaps he uses it so tastfully and sparcely that it is not aggravating. To me this was proof that it is a crutch and the player playing it really did have no imagination to play anything more tasteful. I do not know who the player was on this session and believe I would rather not know. As I just said, the fact that everyone likes this lick so well and it is so easy to play is undoubtedly one of the reasons it is over-used in the world of steel guitar today.
Come on guys....play the music, be original, be yourselves and forget being a copy of something else good OR bad. There is more to steel guitar than one lick regardless of where it came from.
I am not being negative or nit picky about this series of notes that I feel is over played. But would rather be positively encouraging about not using over-used, worn out signature licks that someone else came up with for themselves. There is world full of music out there, we don't all need to play the same thing.
bobbeseymour |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 03 November 2003 09:51 AM
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Isn't it just a repeated note? Last night I tossed and turned in bed, wondering what depth of musical genius could be invested in that note that people could argue about who did it first.
If I ever hear this "lick", it had better be a great note. |
Bob Carlson
Member From: Surprise AZ.
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posted 03 November 2003 10:11 AM
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When I go out to listen to some country music I get there before the band starts playing because I even enjoy listening to the steel man tune up. Eat, drink (pepsi)and be merry.Bob |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 03 November 2003 05:46 PM
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'Everybody' seems to be playing it, Bobbe?Not me - I was simply saying that it sounded nice when Lloyd played on a specific song sometime in the mid-eighties.... |
Jeff A. Smith
Member From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.
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posted 03 November 2003 09:30 PM
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quote:
Isn't it just a repeated note? Last night I tossed and turned in bed, wondering what depth of musical genius could be invested in that note that people could argue about who did it first.
I think I know what "lick" is being discussed. Before I had even begun to play steel, I saw what I believe is a great visual demonstration of it. The demo video that Carter lends out with an option to buy has Jeff Newman playing a slower version of the lick on a single neck with no pedals, tuned to C6.The best description I can think of for the lick is this: First, keep in mind that a particular note is played on one string before sliding up on an adjacent string to hit the same note, perhaps before repeating the same thing, sliding up on the next adajacent string, etc. Keeping this technique in mind, imagine hearing an automobile with a manual transmission go through the gears, with the shift point always being at the same musical pitch. Hope that helps, Earnest. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 04 November 2003 at 06:39 AM.] |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 03 November 2003 10:33 PM
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WEll I actually demonstrate a version of a Ricochet Lick on my video at the 3:30 minute mark Here> http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/SoundFiles/ricky_dsl.wmv
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PAUL WARNIK
Member From: OAK LAWN,IL,USA
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posted 04 November 2003 10:11 AM
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Thanks to Mike Cass for first showing me the 7TH string F# to G# raise years ago! I like it |
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