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Author
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Topic: Superiority of Push Pull?
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Terry Edwards
Member From: Layton, UT
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posted 14 November 2003 02:35 PM
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David,Since you are new to the SGF, we'll cut you some slack. You inadvertently left out an important word in the title. It should have read: Superiority COMPLEX of Push Pull!  Terry ------------------
Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5
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Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 14 November 2003 03:46 PM
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Does anyone know what type/style/make/model of guitar Jimmy Day was using when he recorded the "Steel & Strings" album? There are "tones" and "voices" in his version of "Release Me" that I find to be absolutely awesome. It would be interesting to know if it was a P/P or all pull guitar. Thanks in advance for any info. |
Doug Seymour
Member From: Jamestown NY USA
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posted 14 November 2003 06:02 PM
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The superiority at the time it came into being......may have had a great deal to those who played it then. But this is now!
2003! and the steels of today are good enough for anyone! Some are better than that for most of us! |
Damir Besic
Member From: La Vergne,TN
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posted 14 November 2003 06:39 PM
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good enough,I agree.I guess Sho Bud Maverick is good enough?"Stag" acoustic made in Korea is good enough,so why pay $12.000 for D-28 Martin?Daewoo Lanos is good enough to get you to work so why some people pay for Porsche?Because some people just want more and better I guess.More and better doesn`t necessery means new and modern.2003 guitar doesn`t have nothing `66 PP didn`t have,but `66 PP has something 2003 guitar never will,history and carisma and for sure,sound.------------------
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Mike Sweeney
Member From: Nashville,TN,USA
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posted 14 November 2003 07:09 PM
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Ray, Jimmy Day was playing his Sho~Bud "Blue Darlin" permanent. The Steel and Strings album is still one of the greatest albums to ever be cut. And it was cut over 40 years ago.
I think comparing guitar brands and makes is akin to comparing apples to oranges. Personaly, I play a push-pull because it seems to bring out what I'm feeling better than anything I've ever played. I played Sho~Buds for years before switching to Emmons over twenty years ago. I also think that if Lloyd Green played anything other than his Sho~Bud he wouldn't come across as he does. I'm not saying he wouldn't sound great because he would, he would just sound different. So as I said it comes down to the individual and what they want.
Push-pull cult? Maybe so, but you can say the same thing about Fender amps, Sho~Buds, Standell amps,etc.
I can say this, my black '78 Emmons is a keeper and it's my favorite of all the guitars I've ever owned.
That's where I stand but my feelings aint for everyone nor should they be. If we all thought the same way this would be a very boring world. Mike |
Fred Rushing
Member From: Odin, IL, USA
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posted 14 November 2003 07:16 PM
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FWIW dept, I have had the pleasure of sitting behind more than one of the wonderful PP emmons owned by well known players IE larry sasser and mike sweeney. From my point of view niether one of the guitars had the the action that would come close to my legrande II. No brag just fact. Play more talk less. Fred |
Damir Besic
Member From: La Vergne,TN
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posted 14 November 2003 09:05 PM
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I agree that action on PP is not as fast as on the new guitars,diferent strokes for different folks or whatever floats your boat,either way.But guitar that will sound better than an old PP is yet to be made.No brag,just a fact.------------------
[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 14 November 2003 at 09:06 PM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 15 November 2003 03:05 AM
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And I've seen Buddy play live maybe 6 or 8 times ..He was playing on the Blade only 2 times, all the other times he was on his Legrande..So, the Guru that basically brought the PP to the table doesn't always play the PP ... uuhhmmm..thats odd.... Maybe it's time to send a note to Guiness for publication... "Hey Buddy..I got a guitar just like yours !! Well..I mean just like the one you got at home " Wonderfull tone from the PP's for sure.. Wonderfull tone from the old Fenders too.. Wonderfull tone from the old Sho-Buds too... Excellent tone from almost any modern era Steel.. Someone mentioned above that the 2003 Guitars don't have anything the old 66' guitars didn't have . So are we now thinking that there have been no improvements to the Pedal Steels in almost 40 years ? My 69 big block Corvette was an exceptional go fast in a straight line car..you couldn't ask to drive a car with more charisma and emotion..but geeze..do not attempt to turn the steering wheel while actually going fast ! This was a car considered a good overall sports car with excellent handling back then. Now compare that to my 89 roadster..that stinkin' car was like a roller skate..just turn the wheel and it goes..the brake pedal was just an option that added weight .... Charisma and emotional value are not the same as durablity and tunability. They are personal features as they should be. The PP's are fine..very desirable..but they are not the only Steel out there..and thats a good thing. Think of it this way..if everyone of us played a 65 or 66 PP, we would never have a tone arguement..how boring would that be ! Personal opinions on TONE are opinions and preferences, not facts. Facts are what we hear from politicians on the news channels !  Oopps..sorry...wrong Forum..
T[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 November 2003 at 03:29 AM.] |
Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 15 November 2003 03:17 AM
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quote:
There is no point to argue with someone about the PP tone,you can either hear it or not.
quote:
how would we know what are they using to record with?
seems to me you'd be able to hear it...
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Franklin
Member From:
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posted 15 November 2003 06:32 AM
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Tony...Well said. Dave....You wouldn't pen a guy down would you? Damir....You post without hesitance that you know the sound of PP's and Bud's. Doesn't the fact that you don't know whether PP's, Bud's or newer all pulls are used on recordings, sum up this blindfold test? Paul [This message was edited by Franklin on 15 November 2003 at 06:39 AM.] |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 15 November 2003 07:15 AM
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Actually, when it comes to recordings...it's
pretty tough to distinguish subtle tone
differences. But if you play various steels that are pluggged it into your usual amp set up, and really compare 'em...that's when it
really hits you. |
Mike Sweeney
Member From: Nashville,TN,USA
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posted 15 November 2003 07:17 AM
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" Boring world", Tony, you stole my line. LOL!!!
It shouldn't matter what kind of guitar a guy plays as long as he's happy with it.
As far as my guitar not playing as good as someone's LeGrande, I don't care, I'm not playing the LeGrande. I had two of them and you can see what I'm back to. But again, what I like aint for everybody.
Paul, I remember seeing you on t.v. in the mid '70's with Jerry Reed and that black D-10 push-pull sounded mighty good.Mike |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 15 November 2003 08:52 AM
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The fact that a steel guitar can still cause so much controversy after not being manufactured in the last 25 years shows that it truly must be one of the greatest steel guitars ever produced. Manufactures still use this guitar as the standard of measurment for tone. No steel guitar since Bigsby has appreciated in value as much as this great guitar. This is the ultimate great investment for tone and value. Period. Am I saying this? No, history said this.
bobbeseymour |
Jody Carver
Member From: The Knight Of Fender Tweed~ Dodger Blue Forever
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posted 15 November 2003 09:33 AM
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GREAT POST BOBBE.... |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 15 November 2003 11:18 AM
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Contraversy??? Its not the guitar, it is those posting personal opinions of tonal superiority as facts, causing the contraversy. The guitar sounds great and I have seen no argument there.Here's an accurate analogy..... The PP has earned a special place of tonal respect by all, like the telecaster, and for certain styles it rules. But then there are the timbre's of the Les Paul's, Barney Kessels, Strat's, Gretsch, 335's, 355's, Anderson, Valley arts, L-5s and on and on. All of these also offer an equally special but uniquely different musical option to tone that also rules within as many musical styles. .....Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 15 November 2003 at 11:42 AM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 15 November 2003 at 11:43 AM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 15 November 2003 at 11:46 AM.] |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 15 November 2003 12:04 PM
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Yes Paul, you are correct. bobbeseymour |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 15 November 2003 12:16 PM
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Tony Pryor, your Corvette is still the quality of bad farm machinery, A plastic Cheverolet? Or is it Tupperware, or Rubbermaid? Get a car you can be proud of.
Call John Fabian, at least he drives STEEL cars! You still like those old push rod engines? Then you put down push rod guitars? Good Lord Tony, (just kidding,and you know it!) bobbeseymour |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 15 November 2003 02:03 PM
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Yet...it's kinda strange. None of those
guitars Paul mentioned were ever designed
to sound like something else. They were each
meant to have their own character & personality.
But, when it comes to Steels...it seems like
it's been different. Even back about 20 years
(before there was an internet), all I kept
hearing steel makers (and dealers)say was
"it sounds like an old Emmons" or "it's sort
of a cross between a Sho~Bud & an Emmons".
After saying that, they mainly emphasized the fact that their newer changer mechanism (& all the guts underneath) were far superior.
With regular guitars though, tonal variations
seemed to be more accepted. |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 15 November 2003 02:08 PM
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Jay....You raise a good question. Although I believe there are many who never tried to become the PP. The Marlen, Franklin, ZB, MSA, Deckley, Wright Custom, Sierra, and others just tried to compete against their market. Most steel guitar companies went the formica route and all companies took on similar measurements. Beyond that no company copied the PP mechanism.Paul |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 15 November 2003 02:30 PM
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Well Bobbe Seymour..I do have to come full circle and admit that my old 69 Corvette was like a Push Pull in many ways..There were days we had to either push it or pull it home ! But ya still can't beat the power of that old beast going sideways in 3rd gear with it's deep indentifiable " Tone "... and by the way Mr. drive a Steel car dude..
My 2002 Chevy van is plastic too ! TP |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 15 November 2003 03:26 PM
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May I state at this point that I feel the Franklin steel guitar is a great quality and very well engineered guitar. Its hard to believe that such a wonderful work of art can be done by only one craftsman, in one room. I have given Paul a lot of flack in the past about tone and such, mostly in humor but I always have to admire the workmanship of his fathers hands, the great thought and engineering that he has put into each and every one of these guitars. The fact that he does all this under such modest suroundings shows the true genius of this great man. My admiration for this man knows no bounds.
bobbeseymour No, I'm not forsaking my P-P, but I'm always looking and listening with an open mind, outside the box. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 15 November 2003 at 03:35 PM.] |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 15 November 2003 03:33 PM
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Tony, sounds like you really love your "69 Corvair! (in case anyone doubts it, Tony is my great friend, but Boy, do I ever love to pick on him!) Bks |
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