Common sense should tell you that if any one brand or type were "head and shoulders" above the rest, that would be about the only one you'd ever see being played.

And that's not the case, is it?

Yes, I've owned one for many years, and I've never been able to understand what all the fuss is about. Yes, they sound good, but so do a dozen other guitars.

Next question???

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 10 November 2003 at 03:24 PM.]

Brad Sarno

Donny's point is well taken. At the Norwalk show Zum was used by most players but there were Mullen, Sierra and of course Emmmons too.
Brad- thank you very much for the explaination.

I took my guitar straight to Ron Lashley Jr.
He had the one of the guys who built the push pulls back in the 70's do my copedant, and all the adjustments. I guess that's about as good as it gets. After a about 6 months of gigging the stops are all good- but i am terrified of needing to tune them.
Compared to modern all pull mechanisms, it does not look "solid" to me.

I know it's all about player preference, or what one gets used to, but I prefer the option of a tight/ short throw action. Is this possible with a P/P.

OK- don't all hit me, remember, I'm a newbie- but does the Carter BCT address the contact issue?

'nother possibly stupid question-
Is there really any way to know how you're going to like a particular Pedal Steel Guitar in less than...a month? It's not like walking into Sam Ash and trying out a Les Paul.
It would seem to me that certain strenths and weaknesses in an axe can only be seen over time. No?

I LOVE vintage six string guitars.
I love to play them out too. But it seems that with all the complexity of a pedal steel, new and solid is desirable.
The point abut the top players using newer gear- That was the case in Norwalk, but is it the case all over?
Do top guys in ...Nashville use vintage gear?
Are a lot of the top guys "sponsered"?

[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 10 November 2003 at 07:13 PM.]

There is no doubt that these are classic horns, some sound better than others, just like vintage guitars. I play a 2001 Carter and am really happy with it, but I can see, hear and feel what is special about the p/p's...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 10 November 2003 at 07:27 PM.]

I have a Carter S/10 on order- I'm anxious to try it out.

Its interesting to me that after they both folded their distrubution deals and could no longer afford to give away guitars that many of the pro's decided to go else where.
pertaining to todays endorsements, No company today could afford to do what they did years ago to dominate the professional community which is why we see so much diversity in guitar choices. Today the chances are that we see artists playing the guitar, or guitars for their own personal reasons, not cause they get them free.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 11 November 2003 at 08:17 AM.]

I've had a push pull in the past. I think they are really cool guitars and wouldn't mind having one. However, the vast majority of what you hear on a day to day basis on the radio is not push pull but all pull. To the best of my knowledge, the only significant studio work done on a pushpull is by Sonny Garrish. Paul Franklin and Mike Johnson are both using all pull Franklins. I know that Bruce Bouton was using a push pull but I recently was told he has bought a Carter. Randle Currie just did Brad Paisleys new CD with an all pull guitar. Jeff Peterson uses a Legrande III. Lloyd Green used an all pull for everything. Robbie Turners gorgeous work on Daryl Dodds CD's was an all pull guitar.

Let's see... I've got CDs of John Hughie using an all pull...sound good to me. Wimpy is using an all pull. Steve Palousek is using and all pull. One of the best CD's fro steel ever is the Northern Steels CD. It's a mix, but the all pulls sound just fine.

The only steel CD's I have which are push pull are my Buddy Emmons CD's. Maybe a couple of the Bobbe Seymour CDs are push pull but I'm not certain.

When I bought my push pull in 1990, I bought it because it was cheaper than the current modern all pulls I could find. The current "push pull mania" did not exist at that time or was greatly diminished when compared to todays atmosphere.

The current demand for push pulls is a created demand. There is no true vintage steel market similar to the vintage guitar market. Actually they both are wildy inflated but I won't go into the vintage guitar market here. The steel market is a niche market which is demographically shrinking. Look at the average age of the posters here. We are for the most part middle aged or older. Though we make a big deal out of younger steel players, the numbers at steel conventions simply do not back up any resurgent "youth market".

Sooner or later, the math will begin to catch up with the number of steels on the market... including push pulls. Heck, they sure aren't rare.

Are push pull guitars superior? Only to a few collectors and dealers.

The above is my opinion. Yours may differ. I don't care. I'm not trying to get $5k or even more out of an old guitar. Now if I were trying to sell one.... well, nevermind

------------------
Frank Estes - 1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D

btw.Tommy White would sound great on any guitar,what I said was not ment to be disrespectful in any way,it was just my tought.

and btw. 90% of all the players listed above who play all pull guitars have a PP under the bed.Maybe even two of them.

Reminds me of another story about an emperor and his.... oh never mind.

quote:

---

and btw. 90% of all the players listed above who play all pull guitars have a PP under the bed.Maybe even two of them

---

....and the obvious conclusion Damir is that they use their all-pulls to record with.

In fact, Olson had a cutaway 'SJ' actually finished that was immediately available (I believe the customer had passed away) - JT bought it on the understanding that he could get a credit when his was finished. When the time came, however, Taylor decided to keep both, as he'd grown to love it!

At his concerts you'll see him play the non-cutaway in the first 'half', and use the cutaway guitar (with fresh strings) to finish the show.

My apologies for that attack of trivia.

Roger Rettig

PS: ....but I can't resist adding:

JT told JO that he didn't need a cutaway as he never goes that far up the neck - he asked if maybe Olson could place a sort of 'imitation cobweb' across it to prove the point.... !

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 11 November 2003 at 08:12 PM.]

I don't know where I got "Mike" from. Sorry David. Give me a late pass.......

[This message was edited by HowardR on 15 November 2003 at 02:51 PM.]

quote:

---

It's like owning an old Volkswagen or Harley.

---

... My Harley sounds better than any of my guitars

The cult observation is valid. It's not that I'm dissing push pull guitars, there is a small, very vocal minority which is quite fanatical about them. They are good guitars and not nearly as hard to work on as they are made out to be. The slightly springy pedal action is a function of the mechanism and actually is preferable to me as opposed to some modern all pull guitars "hair trigger" action. It's interesting that the market for push pulls is not strong enough to entice any major builder to offer one. They are perhaps a little more expensive to build, but if market demand was present in large enough scale, the cost would not be significantly higher than some of the more expensive all pulls on the market. I don't see it ever happening though for several reasons. The mechanics scare off a sizeable number of folks. They tend to be a little heavier and the initial tooling up costs would be significant.

You folks who treasure these steels... enjoy. They most certainly represent an era of steel guitar building that we won't see again.

------------------
God Bless,
Steve Stallings

www.pedalsteeler.com

But yes, changing copedents is more involved than an all pull guitar. However, if a removeable bellcrank was designed for a PP, a lot of the hassle of copedent changes would be alleviated, though not all. All modern AP's have these removeable bellcranks.

I've discussed earlier why I play vintage guitars (Bigsby, Emmons wraparound), as well as my Fessenden, on gigs. Bear in mind I play retro country and western swing on my gigs. These reasons are:

1) I enjoy connecting with my favorite music of the past by playing the guitars that made the music originally;

2) recreating the vibe of the music of the past is easier for me on an original instrument. The sound of the fifties and sixties is contained within the instruments made during those periods. No modern guitars I can think of sound like a Bigsby, S~B or a PP from that era;

3) "Back to the Future." When I was a teenager first getting into performing, a steel guitar looked either like a ShoBud, an Emmons, a Bigsby, or a Fender. This is why GFI's and Sierra's and all keyless guitars visually turn me off. I can't visualize a mental picture of me behind a guitar like this. I have a photo of Jimmy Day playing a Sierra he was given, and it looks like he's miserable... it wasn't his type of horn. This is why I like lacquer Fessendens for a modern guitar... they look like old Sho~Buds. This is also why wealthy Baby Boomers now pay $15,000 for the 1960 Stratocaster they couldn't afford when they were in junior high school;

4) pure ego, the "cool factor." Vintage guitar pickers go crazy when they see a super clean Bigsby or a wraparound, or an old Tele/Strat/Les Paul/Martin/et.al.;

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 12 November 2003 at 10:25 AM.]

I did buy a Lamar S10 Keyless at the Conn Show.
I absolutely love the guitar. I can't say enough good things about it. Beautifully finished- amazing woodwork, and solid, polished mechanicals. There's a tap on the P/U which really gives the guitar an almost "strat like" tone.
The benefits of keyless become extremely apparent the first time you change strings- or pick up the guitar.

It was nice meeting you too Howard- please call me David

[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 13 November 2003 at 10:35 PM.]

No question about it, there IS a very unique resonance to the axe.
No need for an amp- you hear it clearly just strumming the strings. I used my new Lamar for a comparison. The Emmons shook the room, the Lamar sounded thin- this test done without the amp.

Since I play a lot of rock I use Fender Amps. Plug in the Emmons and you really see the need for a 15" speaker.
But for me, once you plug them in- I find the Lamar to be much clearer- like comparing a Les Paul to a telecaster.
Both awesome- and very different.

A lot of guys have told me, and written here, that a properly set up P/P will not feel mushy- one guy said he can get the action to equal his new Fessie-
I just don't see how that's possible- the action needs to have much more slack in the rods- it's debatably smooher- but if you're looking for a hair trigger- I don't see how you'd get it with P/P.

When you add the added difficulty of learning the different methods of tuning the stops and it seems to be too much of a trade off for day in day out playing.