One of the best things about the Steel Guitar is that the instrument allows you to play the same thing in so many different ways. One might use a pedal for a certain change, one uses a kneel lever, the third one does it with a slant, and the fourth one doesn't like and play that thing at all! It's all a matter of personal likes and dislikes, also most of today's guitars make it real easy to experiment with new changes you might want to try out...

Happy New Year (Winnie, you are probably the first one to "slip" into 2004!!!)

Walter

I like the Franklin/Emmons pedal 4 a lot too.
And I am finding homes for B+C too.

The top strings would be nearly useless to me without the RKR RKL levers
I just wish I had G#-G lever
So not enough levers or pedals .. nope

On C6 I don't think it's possible to have enough if you play jazz. Double Crawford Clusters doesn't seem illogical any more.

If it's on my guitar I use it. I put it there and I can take it off if it outlives its usefulness. Is it too many? Only if I think so. I'm the one responsible for what the music that comes out of that guitar sounds like.

The key here, as others have pointed out, is MUSIC. You need the changes that are required to express what you have to say musically. For some folks, a 3x5 E9 works great --- more power to 'em.

You can either play or you can't. A 'player' can do more with a 3x5 than a 'pretender' can do with 10x10. Some folks feel that having all that metal dangling under their guitar makes them a better player. Not true, if they don't put them to use in a way that makes good music. The MUSIC is the thing. We get too hung up in the mechanics of pushing this and releasing that. It's WAAAAAY more than that.

My question is, why?

Who set the rules? I would highly question "90% of what most of us do on the steel is two pedal/ two knees." This has not proven itself to me the many times I have watched players on stage. Tom Brumley, Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, Jimmy Crawford, Russ Hicks, Hal Rugg, Doug Jernigan are but a few of the greats who use more than two pedals and two knee levers all the time.

But giving the benefit of the doubt, I can go one better. Jerry Byrd uses NO pedals or knee levers! And he plays ANY thing beautifully. Again, does that suggest we should NOT play pedals or knee levers?

Lloyd Green has never lowered his 4th string. Does that mean we should not either? Ralph Mooney has never had a C pedal! He has a pedal that raises his 4th string a whole tone that he gets by using his right foot coming off and on his volume pedal. Same question?

I must go along with Winnie Winstion on this. If a player hears a change; and that change is not on their quitar; and it is feasable to install it; put that sapsucker on there and enjoy it to its fullest; IF it is his umpteenth pedal or knee lever.

Stated before but still worth repeating, Roy Underhill would not use a power tool if you gave him all the money in the world. Yet Norm Abrams says he is a power tool "junkie"; and rarely uses a tool without a plug on it. Yet both have TV shows on woodworking.

Nope from where I stand there is NO virtue in holding down or removing knee levers IF a player likes that change regardless of how few times it is used.

Praise Jesus for blessing us with sooo many good and wonderful things,

What is "too many", and what is "just enough"? I only know that when I study certain "greats" (Emmons, White, Green, and Franklin, for instance), they seem to do fine with fewer pedals and levers. Then I think to myself, "Do the players with more pedals sound any better?" In my own narrow little mind, the answer is decidedly "No". Now, others may disagree, and that's fine, but it doesn't change my mind.

So, is playing better with fewer pedals a "virtue"? Make up your own minds (I've already made up mine, based on the 4 players I mentioned in the first paragraph). I have my opinion, and you all have yours.

quote:

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In my mind, there definitely is a virtue associated with doing just as much (or more), with less.

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I often express an opinion here on the Forum that's geared more toward the beginning player. I think that many times, beginners buy a steel with 5 or less levers, and then go on to think that "If I only had a few more knee levers, I'd sound just like so-and-so", and most times, that's not the case.

I have no problem with experienced players "loading up" their guitars with a dozen levers, if that's what they want, and I don't personally care if they use them once a night, or on every song. But sometimes, I feel a player with only a year or two behind the axe can be actually distracted by having "too much going on", mechanically. Also, I'm not one to believe that the average player will lose face (or jobs) if he can't play a certain lick exactly like Paul, or Buddy. We all do what we can do, and except for the top dozen or so players, nobody can "do it all".

Many times here on the Forum, some players give the impression that "You gotta have an Emmons", "You gotta have these 8 or 9 levers", "You gotta have such-and-such amp, pickup, volume pedal", etc., etc., and that's just not the case, IMHO. Steelers from the time of Alvino Rey all the way up to Robert Randolph have "made it" with whatever equipment they chose to use. They weren't limited by eschewing fashion trends.

As far as my opinions go, everybody's got one, and let's face it...no real "pro" is going to listen to a "nobody" like me, anyway! They already have their own opinions and experienced based on decades of playing. I only hope to help the "newbies" understand that the music mostly comes from the player, and not from his gear.

Donny brings up a great point. As for most questions, debates, or issues we discuss here, there is often a different answer for an inexperienced player than the one for someone who has mastered the technique and musical aspects of playing pedal steel.

To the beginner:
Don't spread yourself too thin. Learn a piece at a time. Concentrate on one pedal or a combination of pedals or levers and understand why they are there. Starting out on a guitar with 10x10 could easily be intimidating and confusing. Only learn one tuning at a time. Become proficient on your chosen tuning before working on another.

To the experienced player:
I said it before. You are the only person who is accountable for the music that comes out of your amp. No matter whose guitar you play with however many pedals or levers or whom you imitate or whose amp and fx setup you have copied, it will be YOU whose reputation is on the line when you play. Your choice of equipment, notes to play, and all the other decisions will add up to how you sound to other musicians, other steel players, and the general audience. Use what tools you need to get the job done.

Tom's original post stated that he did 85-90% on the bare minimum set-up - he's pretty close on that, I'd say. I'd add the B to Bb lever to that 'minimim', and I'd be happy for a night or two.

I do believe that I learned the tuning more thoroughly by virtue of the fact that, for some years, I only had a '3 + 2' set-up - if I wanted something that eluded me at first, I had to search around for it and think laterally. In time, I found a lot of interesting positions that I might have missed if my guitar had had more on it.

Now I have 5+4 (C6th) and 3+6 (E9th) - I bet my usage is 80% 3+2 and 3+4 respectively (if you see what I mean!); I wouldn't want to be without ANY of those pulls, but Tom has a point....

RR

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 01 January 2004 at 10:33 AM.]

A high quality guitar with the right pickups helps too. Even the right volume pedal must be considered in the equation.

I have a Crate 65 watt amp 12 inch spkr. Probably worth $150. tops.

This is not going to produce the headroom, power and sound that a Webb, Nashville 400, Walker Stereo steel,etc. with 2 to 3 hundred watts and 15 inch Jbls, and black widows. They are definitely worth the extra money. We all know that.

The rest is in the left and right hands..........Happy New Year.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

I wonder what Winnie sounds like when he's grumpy? :>)

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 01 January 2004 at 04:58 PM.]

Bruce W

Yes there were ways to play over the same changes with no pedals...
but it just wasn't coming out like I wanted it to...
and likely never would.
No matter how much I searched or practiced.

There are specific physical limtations that must be considered.
Time, weight, distance, etc.

So it became clear an addition or two was needed.
I now feel I was right in this C6 addition.
The speed and access is greatly improved.
But this was driven by the musical need,
and not just to add parts to be impressive.

There are some changes I am debating, but that is just gravy on top.
A basic, for me, functional system has been found for my needs.

I do like the suggestion of playing it like a lapsteel to find ways to get around better.
I do that, and also do that with one or two pedals/levers activated to see how things can be found as if it were tuned that way.

I have seen Buddy Cage and I am sure he misses the other levers and pedals,
because he was using them in a practical way.
I also am sure he plays great with a simpler set up.
But what musical choices is he leaving out?

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 January 2004 at 06:04 AM.]

The question then becomes which notes/pedals of the chromatic scale can you live without. The answer for most is none.

I have 9 and 9 on all of my D10's. I have a single neck C6th pedabro that has 9 and 7.

It's those other "un-common" changes that are discovered and used with such magical taste that everyone chases..and I suppose..keeps us thinking..and growing..

Thanks Winnie and Paul for your insight...

Fortunately there are no rules or limits on creativity..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 03 January 2004 at 06:09 AM.]

Having been influenced heavily by the above mentioned (including having him build a 10x10 Emmons for me in '79), I would feel rather limited without my setup. There is seldom a session or gig that I don't use everything on my rig (Fessenden guitars with 4 and 8 on the E9's). Though I don't get as much as Jimmie, it is still indispensible for me. I have modified my setup to include some of the more current changes, and absolutely love it.

What ever works for you, that is the right setup...

[This message was edited by John Macy on 03 January 2004 at 10:29 AM.]

"Todays top 40 music doesn't require all those knee levers and pedals. Its steel guitar 101. If you threw in all those extra pedals and knee levers you'd get fired for over playing."

Bulls**t. I make a great living everyday in the studio as a producer, engineer, and session steel player. I understand overplaying as well as anybody. On my guitar I have the hardware, know how to use it, USE it, and I have yet to get fired.

I disagree with your premise that the pop-style country is simpler music than that of the 60's or 70's (if that is indeed what you were getting at). It's much more than simple major/minor stuff -- more suspensions and polychords -- more like pop music of the last few decades, to my ears anyway.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 January 2004 at 09:11 AM.]

I don't know if it's too many; either you find one you want and put it on, or you hear of one being used, and figure out where to slide it in... learning on a standard set up was interesting because I would start fitting the changes into it as I got accustomed to them.