I called Ron to see if I could get a student one of the new legrandes. He called me right back and said they where having some production issues so the wait would be about a year. He also said that once he got a couple things straightened out the wait time won't be so bad. I would love to own one of those new legrandes. I hope everything works out for them.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 05 March 2004 at 11:48 PM.]

A lot can happen in a years time....

Our family business for custom orders is 30 to 45 days..not that it takes 30 - 45 days but the logistics of BUSINESS keeps the 30 day window manageable for us and acceptable for customers. Obviously we are not making Steel Guitars but we are providing products to customers who have ordered and in most cases paid in advance.The actual product is not the driving force,the build/manufacture cycle rules.

Back ordered materials is not the customers problem..never has been, never will be..If a business turns back ordered components into a customer problem without resolving the normal business practice/cycle, then bigger issues are generally in play. Back ordered components are a symptum , not a cause.

I'm not saying that this is whats going on in this situation but as normal Business 101 tells us , it may be a flag..

I like what Carl states above ..and I feel that is about as accurate as you can get.

Anyway..I have seen some of the new Emmons Steels and I would be proud to play one as well..but I am not certain I could wait..or would wait a year...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 March 2004 at 03:52 AM.]

Sorry! I just had to get all that off my chest!

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 06 March 2004 at 11:25 AM.]

quote:

---

Taking a customer's money and buying parts to use in another's guitar is a Ponzi scheme and it is immoral; and should be illegal.

---

It doesn't really pertain to me, because as I say. " If it ain't ***~***, it aint ****."

Is this the company that had a split, and/or legal difference with a gentleman of the same name?

Are there terms spelled out in the initial contract? Is there one?

Wouldn't a reasonable person expect some sort of assurance in case of fire, theft, death of the owners or some other contingency?

Some companies are in the category where there is no need for anything but a verbal understanding. When it gets to the point where there needs to be more, it has to be understandable and enforceable. I'd say when the sum involved exceeds a couple grand and the time frame exceeds a year.

I'm not too sure. That name sounds very familiar, but back then, quite a few labs were cropping up, offering film and developing of the 5247 Eastman film. Some of them were honest, and did their best to keep up with the demand of the film. They all offered negatives and slides. I'm sure you remember the product. I've been out of that industry for a long time now, and I don't even know if Eastman 5247 (formerly 5254) film is still around. It was a good film. The owner of the company that I worked for had all his film developed by a Hippy Commune in Mountain View, Calif. Remember those days? I bet a lot of people hadn't thought of "Hippy Commune" in a long time, and a few people probably don't even know what one is!

Bob

In fact, the transaction including the shipping was exactly as fast and efficient as the stuff I ordered from the forum.

However, when I order from a certain Steel Guitar shop in Nashville, there are always problems, like mistakes, or not stocking items without telling me, and then ignoring my emails. They have done that BS twice now.

[This message was edited by Peter on 07 March 2004 at 12:35 PM.]

Edited to say: Although I had no responses to emails to Carter, I now realize it was due to my not putting the word CARTER in the email subject. Evidently they sent out a letter that I never got explaining the junk mail problem they are having. I have no reason to not believe them as I am also having trouble recieving other very important tax documents. I moved twice this year and am having trouble the mail forwarding system. Carter, in my mind, still has great service.

If my comments stirred up the rest of the "blast Carter" post, I sincerely apologize to everyone. I tried to make a point that even the best have problems. By the way, My Carter came on time as promised.

And a note to the manufacturers: PLEASE LIST REPLACEMENT PARTS AND PRICES ON YOUR WEBSITE. I only know of one manufacturer that does (Emmons, by the way). This would cut down on the amount of emails they would get bogged down with and could spend more time building guitars and cut down the wait times a little for new guitars. Just a thought.

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 10 March 2004 at 01:39 PM.]

I had a call answered at the Carter offices about a technical question on a Sunday afternoon- it was a wild shot on my part, I planned to leave a message, but there was John Fabian, preparing guitars for a show. John told me they aren't there every weekend, but sometimes- so probably the phone is the way to go, certainly so during biz hours. Email is great, but only when it works! I've found this true with both businesses and individuals- not everyone is as computer-enabled as we Forumites.

FWIW I contacted Emmons Gtr. Co. via email about instructional material and heard back within a day or so.

[This message was edited by John McGann on 07 March 2004 at 04:19 PM.]

First, the Ponzi Scheme accusation. A Ponzi Scheme, where the money collected from the last investors goes to pay the first investors, is set up that way from the git-go by the design of the schemer. That is NOT what the Emmons company, or any other steel manufacturer that I know of created.

No manufacturing business builds a guitar, or widgets, or whatever, one at a time based on the money received by one customer. John Doe's money, received by the company, goes into the general fund, as does Joe Blow's money, and the rest of the customers' orders. This money is used to buy parts for many guitars, keep the factory open, utilities turned on, meager staff paid, interest on business debt, etc. No one puts John's money or Joe's money into a little jar with the label "use only for John's guitar."

What happens when a company changes hands, like the Emmons co. a couple years ago, and suppliers/vendors change means that there are delays in getting parts for dozens, if not hundreds, of guitars. Sometimes weeks are spent finding a new vendor for certain parts, then weeks waiting for the parts to arrive, then if the parts that are finally delivered are incorrect, the process starts all over again. This can result in interminable delays.

If the company is financially underfunded, like many steel guitar companies can be and have been, this only adds to the problem. Vendors wait until past bills have been paid before sending new merchandise. These bills generally get paid from orders coming in.

This is not due to larceny on anyone's part, just plans that have gone awry.

Unfortunately, this does nothing to help the poor customer who only wants a good guitar delivered in a timely fashion. Well, he calls up the factory, and rather than say "we hope the parts will come in next week," the answer is "your guitar will go out in a couple of weeks... (we hope!)" But really, the guitar builder's butt is in a crack since he's dependent on his parts suppliers.

This may or may not be what has happened to Emmons Co., or it may be only part of the delay in delivery. But it's a common one among small manufacturers who think beyond the "one guitar at a time" model.

I had a long talk with Ronnie and Rebecca a couple of years ago about this topic, and he's well aware of his dad's legacy and how he should keep it going. When the previous owners turned over the company, a great number of new vendors had to be found, and a new company basically started from scratch. This would be an overwhelming task in an of itself, not to mention dealing with irate customers. But I believe Ronnie and Rebecca will hang in there.

I might be talking out of school, but these things happen in business. They just do.

If you absolutely, positively, must have a new Emmons, buy it from a dealer who has one in stock, find a used one, or understand there will be a wait. It seems like those are the choices. Chewing the butts of the builders most likely won't get your guitar any quicker.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

quote:

---

"It's too bad that Jack is choosing to leave the forum again. He used to be a great contributor"

---

I agree. I have a tremendous love and admiration for Jack Strayhorne and I have made that point on this forum on several ocassions.

Also, I have gone on record stating that (outside the Anapeg) the Emmons' PSG is the finest PSG ever built. I do not budge from that opinion.

However, and I agree, "facts are facts".

Mike Richardson created this thread and posted the following:

quote:

---

"I went to North Carolina March 10,2003 and ordered my SD-10 Lagrande ll, and I am still waiting.I guess I should not have paid for it in full.I keep getting the same thing when I call,"It will be here next week."I wonder if next week will ever get here?"

---

Now the facts are, whether any of the posters on this forum have ever built a steel guitar or not is not the point. The point is that Mr Richardson did NOT give his money to the Emmons' company to subsidize Ron's business or his personal obligations.

He gave that money to pay for an Emmons' Pedal Steel guitar. To date he has not received it. Those are the facts of the matter. It is fine to defend a person or a business against unwarranted attacks.

But is the above unwarranted and are they attacks? Or are they stating truth? I too paid hard earned money IN advance for my guitar and ONLY after threatening to sue did I get my guitar.

Now get this, during the year I waited to get it, Emmons Guitar company brought 11 brand new PSG's to the ISGC in Stlouis. But NOT one was for me and MOST were not sold yet. Yet they sold most of them on the floor.

Now my question is, where did the Emmons' company get the money and the parts to build and bring all those guitars to ISGC? I do not think it takes a Rocket scientist; or a person who works for a PSG manufacturer, to know where they got the money. SOME of it came from me! But did it go for MY guitar?

I believe we all know the answer. So in that case a number of people got their guitars BEFORE I got mine. EVEN though I had paid in full for mine 8 mos prior!!

If this is an attack, so be it. But it was not right to do business with me that way; it was unethical and immoral and SHOULD be against the law. As a matter of fact it WAS against Federal law.

And when I realized I was sent a flyer in the mail, is when I checked and sure enough there IS a federal law that states you must deliver the merchandise within 90 days IF you have advertised it. Congress enacted this law to put a stop to just this type of chacanary.

Such was the case. It was ONLY then after I made it known that I was going to use that Post Office federal law to bring law suit that I suddenly got my guitar.

Now again, I love and admire Jack. I love the Emmons' Guitar. To me it has the best sound of any guitar I have ever heard. But those are the facts. And NO company is going to stay in business if this type of practice does not come to a screeching halt.

Especially in this day of the internet; where unsuspecting buyers can receive instant reviews and critiques.

It goes like this folks. If you are going to be in business, then ya gotta be a business man. If it means you work 20 hour days, 7 days a week, ya do it. If it means you eat beans and cornbread, Ya do it. If it means ya gotta bite the bullet, ya do it. Etc, etc, etc.

Because if'n ya don't, ya better close the doors and get a job at Mcdonalds to support your family cuz, if'n ya don't your customers WILL close your doors for ya, as they go to manufacturers that WILL deliver tha bread,

Ron Jr is a very nice person. Rebecca is one of the sweetest persons around. But If I was Ron Jr and got wind of this thread, I would call Mr Richardson IN the morning and tell him,

"I will make NO excuses. We goofed. I will cut you a refund check in full NOW if you want it. Or if you still want the guitar, YOURS will be the first one out the door. No IFs, no ANDS and no BUTs.

Either way you have been done wrong and I would not blame you if you never bought another product from us."

So help me Jesus, I would do it. Because this is the right thing to do.

That is my story and I am sticking to it,

Jesus WILL right all wrongs,

I'm with you.

I had a horrible experience with Carter guitars- the same people jumping on the "bash Emmons" parade tried to make me feel like I was completly out of line when I objected to Carter's customer service on this forum.
By the way, besides other tremendous customer service gaffs, my Carter guitar came late.

Some folks have waited a long time for their Emmons -no one waits long for a Carter-or would.
Some people rave about Carter Guitars- but then there's folks that think the Carter Guitar sounds terrible.
EVERYONE loves Emmons guitars.

quote:

---

Ron and Rebecca need all our good will- they deserve a chance to succeed- and all those here throwing stones are not working in that spirit- even if their gripes are justified.

---

David F. also said,

quote:

---

I had a horrible experience with Carter guitars… The guitar- remember this was a standard S10, 3/5 which they promise on their site to ship in 30 days- was shipped on 11/30/2003. This is 2 days late. Carter can moan about the fact that Thanksgiving was involved- but the 30 guarantee makes no mention of holidays.

---

So if I understand correctly, we should extend grace to one particular steel guitar manufacturer for being chronically late in delivery, but we should withhold grace from another steel guitar builder for being two days late?

[This message was edited by Randy Pettit on 08 March 2004 at 11:19 AM.]

John Fabian's phone call to you today was a courtesy to give you the chance to correct your inaccuracies before we were forced to. You were short with him and did not want to listen (as usual).

While this thread is not about us and really about another builder, it has become a discussion with some generalized statements about builders and various builders' business practices. Basically, everyone has an opinion, and it's kind of like the old Japanese drama, "Rashomon [sic]" in which 3 people explain an event to a judge in a Japanese court; and none of the 3 stories bear any resemblance to each other. There are almost always more than 2 sides to a story.

John Fabian originally posted on this thread SOLELY because of what b0b said regarding full payment. Emmons and almost every other builder we know of are doing the best they can to deliver product to their customers.

Your Carter was shipped on December 1, 2003, the FIRST (1st) available shipping date after the 30-day mark, which was a NON-UPS Ground shipping day (if the 30th day falls on a non-UPS-Ground pickup day, then it falls to the regular next shipping day, as we explained to you before you placed your order. Again, you truly do not listen and you have selective memory; that has been both John's and my experience with you.)

Your statement regarding your steel being late is inaccurate at best. You were told by John Fabian and Ann Fabian at last one (1) time each, BEFORE you placed the order that we had temporarily suspended the 30-day ship dates and were promising 60-days maximum due to the unusually large amount of orders received during and after Scotty’s Convention; a fact you seem to conveniently keep forgetting. Your Carter was, therefore, shipped on time.

Additionally you told us to take extra time if we needed it, effectively restating that the 60-day promise was fine with you. I find it odd that you continue to take us to task for doing what you requested of us.

You also said

quote:

---

When a company ( Carter) does not give a HOOT if they leave a trail of dissatisfied customers, well, this is what you get.

---

We would say that when a customer does not give a hoot about listening to or understanding what they are being told, you get a dissatisfied customer.

The extra accessories were shipped to you to MORE than cover ($60 worth of accessories shipped at no extra freight charge to you) the difference in price due to YOUR cancellation of an Emmons volume pedal modification to the pedal bar in mid-order. Despite the fact that the modification had already been made, we shipped an unmodified pedal bar, again as you requested, and at no extra cost to you.

Below is the complete text of your fax to us dated 11/30/2003, signed in your handwriting "David Thank You!!"
See * * * * * * *below.

If you reread this, you'll see that you actually waived ANY claim about when the Carter was shipped. The Carter was shipped on time.

As you are now both a webmaster and representative for another steel builder, I would think you would strive to maintain a higher level of accuracy in your statements and claims than you have displayed to date.

Of course, you are free to continue to bad mouth us to your heart’s content.

We are just requesting that you be accurate with your statements.

* * * * * * *
TEXT of David Friedlander's November 30 2003 FAX to us in which he essentially acknowledged what he'd been saying in conversations with us from Day 1 of his order, that he knew his Carter was promised to be shipped with custom features within 60 days (btw: we had already planned to ship Mr. Friedlander's Carter on what was technically Day 30, Monday December 1, 2003, when we received this fax on Sunday, November 30, 2003):

"Hi Guys:

I hope you all had a bunch o' turkey!

I have been thinking a lot about this -- probably too much, but then again if I didn't love these things, which would I want so many?

I think it's mainly a difference in styles that caused conflict. I do not want to cause you guys any problems at all - just the contrary - I made suggestions because I thought they might be valuable - that's my nature. You guys, on the other hand, have a lot of orders - you know a lot more about these things than I do- I'm sorry if well intentioned suggestioins turned into an argument. The fault here is all mine.

I would rather wait a few more weeks, and maintain a good relationship with all of y'all. Please, take your time, Ship the guitar whenever you can comfortably do so.

You have my apologies for any problems I may have caused.

David Friedlander (Rocky)
[handwriting: "David
"Thank You!!
"email: contact@diamondsbylauren.com"]

[This message was edited by Ann Fabian on 08 March 2004 at 01:22 PM.]

...Boom!..a devastating right hook staggers him at the bell...sorry, "Rocky", I gotta give that round to Ann Fabian...

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 08 March 2004 at 01:30 PM.]

I know nothing about the Emmons Guitar Company today but there is no justifying anyone taking a deposit for something they know, and I repeat, know they can’t deliver. I was promised a two year delivery on my Bigsby pedal guitar and it was shipped two years later to the month. Waiting that long to get a Bigsby was not a factor at the time because it was very special to me and worth it. Not getting it by then would have been a huge disappointment, so I sympathize with anybody who has had to go through this experience.

OK- Let's take your post point by point.
1) John called me today and told me he wanted me to retract my statement- Since my statement was 100% true, I refused.
I did listen enough to know what he wanted.
I also asked him why he never took the time to call me when I had problems with your guitar- no answer on that one.

2) the reason for John's post.
Yes Ann, everyone has an opinion. When I was complaining of YOUR treatment of me, y'all were curiously silent. When it comes to bashing Ron and Rebecca- there you are, ready to chime in- if only to use it as another opportunity to promote your company.

I have my order form right here Ann- It's dated 10/28- from YOUR fax machine.
By your own admission you shipped on 12/1- that's late- contrary to John's statement eariler in this thread.

You claim to have told me this right up front- I have no recollection of any such statement- nor does it say that anywhere on your bill of sale- and you REFUSE to write an email or fax for such matters- unlike most businesses which would make such a statement in writing, there is NO proof at all you told me anything different than what you publish on your site.
You claim that you have "suspended" your 30 shipping pledge http://www.steelguitar.com/guarante.htm
Well- there is is. Here on this thread you claim you can't currently ship in 30 days, so why is the guarantee on the site?

Ann your ideas about customer service would be humourous if they were not so frustrating.
I'm a bad customer because I do not listen-hmmm- Carter customers better remember all the discrepencies these people come up with. And you better have a good memory, because they're not going to put it in writing.

I also appreciate you transcribing my fax-
Here's why I sent the fax-
Every time I spoke to you on the phone Ann, it was an ordeal- I know, I'm a horrible customer, I don't listen...etc.

Except I was the guy paying over $2000 for your guitar- any smart business person would keep that in mind.

I pleaded with you to correspond thru email- instead I was forced to recieve your calls- ONLY WHEN IT WAS CONVENIENT FOR YOU, and with no consideration for your customer's time.

In the fax, I am trying to be as deferrential as possible- The conflict I spoke of was caused by my request that you communicate by other means besides the phone.

The fax you've transcribed was preceded by a phone call where you told me that you would not be honoring your 30 day guarantee.
When you sensed I might cancel the order you abruptly changed your tune and said
"OK WE"LL SHIP YOU'RE GUITAR- ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?" This last statement was made in such a way that I understood you were very upset.

I realized that if Carter need extra time, it was a mistake to ask them rush. I also sent the fax to try ( in vain) to keep things on a positive note. How wrong I was not cancel my order that very day.
To remind those who don't know what happened:
I ordered a Carter. I did not like it.
I kept the guitar 6 days. I asked if Carter would take it back.
Ann told me that they would take it back at a $700 loss to me IF I got it there by the end of the month- And she was very clear that if UPS took a day or two extra, I'd be out of luck.
So I could loose my $700 by returnin the guitar- but I'd better dance to her tune, or then I'd be stuck.
I really don't like being talked to that way. I did not want to be put in the position of selling what I consider to be a non desirable guitar- so I complied - let the Fabains find someone to buy it.

The fact that I've helpmed Lamar to have a website has NOTHING to do with the problems I had doing busines with Carter.

This forum obvoiusly serves a purpose.
The last time I talked to Ann I practically begged her to act in a reasonable manner. I even reminded her that I was a member here and resolving things in a nice way would help everyone. My attitude and this post is the result of her response.

[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 08 March 2004 at 04:31 PM.]