|
Author
|
Topic: History of the "Es Raise" Lever - from Lloyd G.
|
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 06:18 AM
profile
Paul, Is it possible for a steel guitarist to possess a "secret" knee lever change; one that is virtually impossible to ferret out through persistent searching? I believe through hearsay that a famous steel guitarist was successful in not revealing the change. The relevancy of the inquiry springs from afterthoughts transpiring from your words in previous replies. Bill |
Franklin
Member From:
|
posted 22 January 2006 09:40 AM
profile
Bill,
Pedals only change notes into other notes. The answer to your question is no. The only way it could be yes would be to believe that someone at the musical level of a Buddy, Chalker, Jernigan, Julian, Rugg couldn't hear interval changes. If that were the case they could not play Jazz or anything else they were into. Insert your favorite legends and you'll find that they learned to play without any pedal teachers. Their ears developed and taught them what to do. If what you asked was true this could never happen. Is it possible for someone to play something that will make you think? Yes. But after a players ears are at the level of the professionals discussed within this thread, they can hear which notes are changed and can mathematically figure out what open strings would need to be altered in order to achieve what they hear. Also the reason this and other changes are experimented with around the same time is because in some ways all of these players were at the same musical level of discovery.
And they were All completely unique to the other because what they heard came from inside, not from copying each other. On the E9th they were finding their own path down the same country road. Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 22 January 2006 at 10:27 AM.] |
Buddy Emmons
Member From: Hermitage, TN USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 10:34 AM
profile
Gary Spaeth: I didn’t refute Carl Dixon’s statement regarding the E to F change because I wasn’t sure where it came from. One thing for certain though, it was around before Pete’s dream, including thinking about the way Pete wanted to do it. The earliest I remember having the E to F knee lever was on my first Emmons guitar because it had the ability to raise and lower the same string. Anything regarding who had it before that is a blank to me.Larry Bell: I believe Carl Dixon was a bit misguided regarding my invention of the major triad. I only invented the first and second inversions. 
|
Franklin
Member From:
|
posted 22 January 2006 12:03 PM
profile
Buddy,Thanks for your input. Billy Clark was the first to tell me about the change after seeing you somewhere in the early 60's and long before the dream. Do you remember him? He was Casey's son. Paul |
Buddy Emmons
Member From: Hermitage, TN USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 12:37 PM
profile
Yes I do remember Billy. I’m happy to say I was able to visit with Casey a year or so before he passed away. He was in good spirits and told me his daughter, Evelyn, had settled down somewhere in Tennessee. Casey had a lot to do with the direction of my career and I’ll always remember him and his family for their kindness.[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 22 January 2006 at 12:40 PM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 05:13 PM
profile
Paul, It's regretful when I think after taking a long range view, that much of the interesting facts concerning knee levers and floor pedals, may be lost in the shuffle of time. Future steel guitarists may very well move on to new concepts. Who knows who will carry the ball, and preserve the accurate information for posterity?
Bill |
Al Brisco
Member From: Toronto, ON Canada
|
posted 22 January 2006 07:48 PM
profile
All I can add to this, is that my first Sho-Bud 'Finger Tip Tuner' D-10 that I purchased in 1966 came with the E's to F's change on my LKR (which is an awkward place for it), but if I am correct, it is where Lloyd has it to this day.
Al Brisco |
Gary Spaeth
Member From: Wisconsin, USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 08:53 PM
profile
Mr. Emmons, Sir. (gulp!) in the thread i referred to earlier you said you had an e-f# on your sho-bud on the third pedal. why couldn't you have pulled the e-f on that guitar as well? [This message was edited by Gary Spaeth on 22 January 2006 at 09:15 PM.] |
Buddy Emmons
Member From: Hermitage, TN USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 07:44 AM
profile
Gary,
I couldn’t have pulled the E to F on that guitar as well because it was a late fifties Sho~Bud permanent model that wouldn’t raise or lower the same string twice. Looking back, I’m sure it could have been done but I don’t recall having it. For that reason the E to F and E to F# double raise originated in the early sixties when the all-pull and push-pull guitars were introduced. My first experience with it was on an Emmons guitar in 1962.
[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 23 January 2006 at 07:59 AM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 08:43 AM
profile
Wouldn't a reasonable facsimile of the E to F change be found by raising the 2nd string a full tone, and actuating the A pedal? It would be difficult to rely totally on what is heard since the string gauges (2 and 4) are about the same. I'm aware of the much needed Eb that has become a standard in fast scale patterns. I can't envision a discernable difference in the actual sound though, when played as a triad.Bill |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
|
posted 23 January 2006 09:16 AM
profile
Of course it's the same chord
B U T
One typical transition with the A+F is from a major to a minor triad. e.g., open, A+F = C#Major -- let off F lever --> C#minorOne major advantage (no pun intended -- ok . . . maybe a LITTLE pun) of it on the 4th string is that the 'major chord grips' of E9 are intact while walking through those first and second inversions of the major chord (which, by the way, Mr. Emmons invented).  That is not the case with the second string. It just wouldn't be the same, but, yes, it could have been done on the more limited, older style changers Buddy referred to. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 23 January 2006 at 09:20 AM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 11:41 AM
profile
Larry, Resonance is the key issue, plus the "advantage" of not having to drift 3 frets away from home plate, or better known as the tree. A player could conceivably get the job done by utilizing 4 half steps on the second string. Two up and 2 down; each independent of the other. In other words NO double raises or lowers on one lever. The second string trade off from a major to a 7th is interesting. Bill |
Gary Spaeth
Member From: Wisconsin, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 06:02 AM
profile
so lacking any further testimony we can conclude that buddy emmons was the first to have the e-f knee lever change on a modern psg. this doesn't surprise me. case closed? |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
|
posted 24 January 2006 06:53 AM
profile
You totally lost me there Bill  ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
|
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 08:17 AM
profile
quote:
case closed?
Perhaps, altho there is an argument for parallel evolution, as Bobby discovered the F lever independently, and I thought I had discovered the 2nd and 3rd inversions.There is also the question of future evolutions.
My prediction: as the C pedal declines in popularity, the F raise will go on an O pedal--or perhaps 'N', as an indetermined number--and may be called 'FP'--not to be confused with 'PF'. The F lever will still be a half-step raise, but will be used to attain F#'s, thus being a fitting replacement for the C pedal, and giving the possibility for a C#sus4, a useful passing chord.
There will be a popular backlash, of course, as players begin to extol the uselessness of that F'N' pedal. To circumvent that possibility, I would propose a PN that raises F's to F#'s, and a half-step lower on LKL (or whatever was your F lever. Think about it. |
Dave Grafe
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 11:15 AM
profile
quote:
as the C pedal declines in popularity
I was totally unaware of this trend, Charlie. As the B+C combo represents a 4 chord (aka A+B) with a raised 6th just as the A pedal alone represents a 1 chord (aka no pedals) with a raised 6th I'll be leaving it as is on m guitar, somebody already done some real good thinking to get it there, I just don't see it going away in my lifetime.Then again, my friends tell me that I always a little bit "different".... |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 11:55 AM
profile
I confess, Dave; I made it up. |
Jon Zimmerman
Member From: California, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 12:20 PM
profile
Wow! (gulp) Great thread! |
Franklin
Member From:
|
posted 24 January 2006 12:26 PM
profile
Buddy,
I can relate to that sentiment, I met Billy and Casey when I was 10 and they would let me set in with them and struggle through the only two songs I knew. Anyway their support lit the fire. Billy knew every recording of yours and most of the time he could play the E9th stuff verbatim. He said you got him started playing and he was really a soulful player. It was Billy who introduced your musicianship to me and he was one of your biggest fans, as I am, and I owe Billy and Casey alot. They gave me my first onstage experiences.Paul [This message was edited by Franklin on 24 January 2006 at 12:29 PM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 24 January 2006 at 12:32 PM.] |
Gary Spaeth
Member From: Wisconsin, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 12:32 PM
profile
uh oh! just found another thread http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/008028.html and it looks like of all people carl dixon was the first. i know if i keep searching i'll find out he invented the major triad. he he! |
Curt Shoemaker
Member From: Ionia, Kansas, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 12:38 PM
profile
Man-o-Man, all this time Smiley Roberts has been telling me he started it all back in 1906!! |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 12:58 PM
profile
Carl Dixon did discover it very early: quote:
When I bought my first PSG, a 1956 (it may have been 57 not sure) Fender 400 with 6 pedals I noticed a definite need for the E to F change. So I added a crude excuse for a knee lever that would create that change.
Lloyd Green was the one who made it mainstream, though, by making obvious use of it on a #1 hit record. It was a moment in steel guitar history, like Bud Isaacs' "Slowly", where everything changed.------------------
 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
|
posted 24 January 2006 01:57 PM
profile
quote:
Man-o-Man, all this time Smiley Roberts has been telling me he started it all back in 1906
He told me the same thing. He claimed he lost out to Joseph Kekuku on "Star Search." ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
|
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 01:59 PM
profile
Carl did actually say:
quote:
Fill me in folks. Are you saying that Lloyd Green was not the first to use the E-F lever when he recorded "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" by Tammy Wynette?
Clearly it takes a recording artist to start a trend. Please excuse my bad. |
The Steel Guitar Forum
