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I was always under the impression that pianos were "temper" tuned by professionals with an "ear" so that various chordal combinations would all sound "okay" (whatever that is) to our ear. By this I assume that we're talking some sort of compromise between JI & ET ... but this discussions has seemed to indicate that pianos are ET ... if this is so then why do we have piano tuning professionals?

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You would have to learn to tune the entire piano beginning with a single fork. To make a long story short, the temperament octave is tuned so that the beat rates in major third and major sixth intervals increase in speed by about one half beat per second, as one proceeds upwards by half-steps.

Since each piano and set of strings is different, accomplishing this even progression of beat rates in thirds and sixths will not generally match pure, exact equal temperament. However, even the Conn Strobotuner manual for piano tuning (not its basic owner's manual) suggests varying from pure equal temperament when necessary, to achieve this even progression of thirds and sixths; it's more pleasing to the ear.

The intention is still to have the piano equally usable in all twelve keys. So, it isn't really accurate to say that piano tuning involves a compromise between ET and JI, at least in that the general intention still involves 12 equally spaced semi-tones.

However, in another way, aural piano tuning does involve at least one basic principle used when tuning by ear to JI: The final authority and method involves beat rates created by coinciding harmonics between different intervals, or the absence thereof -- not a visual readout of pure ET on an electronic tuner, since the two will not always agree.

Notes are tuned progressively more sharp as one proceeds up from the temperament octave, and flat going down. This is necessary because of "inharmonicity," which refers to the phenomena whereby a string's thickness causes it's harmonics (overtones) to be sharp from what they should theoretically be. When you play different note groups together on a piano, the relationships between overtones and the beat rates created by these relationships are more important than whether the fundamental frequencies of all the notes match theoretical equal temperament.

Some authorities also have mentioned a tendency of the human ear to hear higher frequencies as being flatter than they are, so that may also be a factor in why octave stretching in the treble sounds good, as well as the common desire to have more brilliance in that section.

An acoustic piano that is tuned straight to equal temperament with an electronic device sounds horrible. If that weren't the case, you can be assured that professional piano tuning would have been exposed as a colossal fraud long ago, since it's fairly simple --putting aside the physical techniques involved-- to buy an electronic device and tune every note straight to equal temperament.

thanks for answering my question and putting all that in perspective. I actually recall having read this before but had forgotten it.

Graham

I was looking over an article I have by Bill Bremmer on how to pass the PTG tuning exam. Mr. Bremmer is one of the "gurus" in the piano tuning world. In talking about electronic devices and the PTG test, I didn't mention that although one is required to tune the middle section strictly by ear, beginning with a single reference pitch, one is allowed to use a device after that point if they choose. Again, tuners who use a device still have to factor in inharmonicity, so it isn't straight equal temperament.

I think this paragraph from the article by Mr. Bremmer is a good summation of what we've been talking about:

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"Different pianos have different amounts of Inharmonicity. This word means that the overtones, harmonics or partials, whichever you choose to call them are exact multiples of the fundemental tone. They are all sharp and the higher the overtone, the sharper (but also the more fainter) it gets. Inharmonicity is the very reason why octaves and all the notes between them must be "stretched" as it is said. The theoretical values for each of the 88 notes of the piano must be altered to accomodate Inharmonicity. Since each piano's Inharmonicity factor is different, the tuning which is perfect for each piano is also unique."

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Yes, the piano IS tuned ET in the octave around middle C. It is also tuned pretty much ET within any given octave. But the difference is, a given octave is NOT tuned to the same pitch as another one. This due to the so-called and almost universally accepted "stretch-tuning" technique peculiar to the piano and possibly Harp.

It was found early on that IF all octaves on a piano were tuned pure ET, that the upper octaves "sounded" progressively flatter referencing the middle C octave and the lower octaves sounded progressively sharper to the middle C octave.

After much trial and error long ago, it was determined that this was due to (as the posters have said) the inharmonicity of "ringing" strings of different lengths and diameters.

To counteract this, and cause a piano to be perceived (sound) as though it was tuned to ET on all octaves, they progressively sharpened ever so slightly each octave above the middle C octave and progressively flattened ever so slightly each octave below the middle C octave.

The end result is a piano that sounds like it was tuned from one end to the other straight ET; even though the highest octave has notes tuned almost 30 cents sharp!

This should not be confused with JI in any shape, form or manner. Or "it's tuned to a compromise between JI and ET". When a highly skilled piano tuner stretch tunes a piano according to the most accepted standards, that piano will sound almost dead on ET over every one of its 88 keys.

Now there have been attempts to alter the above and shift certain notes to suit a given player in a given key. This has been done by more than one great piano tuner to satisfy (usually) an eccentric pianist.

But IF you called the best most highly skilled piano tuner to tune your piano and you did not request otherwise, he would almost assuredly stretch it according to the aforementioned method.

In fact, one of the finest electronic strobe tuners has a piano stretch method programmed into it. And it is accurate to .001 cents average and NO less than .01 cents absolute. It is the Precision Strobe Tuner-3.

It is my understanding that many former skilled "fork" tuners are now using it (where they had disdain for other all other electronic "gimmicks") to tune pianos. What makes this tuner soooo great is it has filters sooo accurate that even the bottom most notes on a piano causes NO shimmy in the display. A feat next to impossible on almost every other tuner made.

The most interesting thing of all (to me) when it comes to a piano being tuned "ET" (strecthed) by a skilled piano tuner, is how beautiful it sounds to MY ears. Yet, IF that skilled tuner was to tune my steel and all its changes using that same method, it sounds horrible.

Of course as has been said many times on this forum, there is no mystery of why this happens. We are blessed with one of the world's most beautiful instruments but we are cursed at the same time.

Every musical instrument produces (overtones) that are distinctly different from every other musical instrument. It is this fact that tells us what instrument is playing. Our ears subconsciously pick up on these subtle and almost inaudible ovetones and we know istantly what instrument it is.

But for some reason the overtones on a steel guitar clash (for most players) when it is tuned exactly as a piano or ET. If you doubt this, tune just your E G# B to be in total unison to the E G# B keys on a finely tuned piano. And listen to each.

For most players the piano is quite tolerable and to some it sounds beautiful. Yet to most steel players it sounds terrible on the steel guitar.

Only in Heaven will an imperfect world be a thing of the past. Something to think about. Remember Our precious creator is NOT bound by logic he gave man to live by on earth! Praise his holy name.

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When somebody in a band wants an E note, I play what's perfectly centered in my Korg. I don't ask them if they are using it as a Third, Sixth, or Fifth. Similarly with a B, D, G, or any other note.

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Wether you use a tuner, by ear, JI or ET...

Do you guys tune your open E's with the A+B pedals up, or A+B pedals down?

This grid is layed out in the key of D but the deviations from ET are pretty clear and will apply to any key. You can see that the (favorite) real naturally occuring major third falls about 14 cents flat of the ET third. It's these intervals based on ratios that are the "God Given" musical intervals. Bach did us a huge service and disservice at the same time by developing ET. In my opinion it's these natural harmonic intervals that best grab our heartstrings in music. Not that I haven't been moved by piano or other ET music, but the steel and other potentially "in tune" instruments seem to have the most emotive power when the intervals, especially the major third are true and not ET. Without that real major third, it seems that steel players will try to compensate with vibrato, but that true intervalic relationship of the 1st, 3rd and 5th isn't there. It's like a lens that never really gets into focus. When all three of these notes are right with the 3rd at 14 cents flat and the 5th at zero ET or more accurately 2 cents sharp of zero ET, then the whole chord or any pairs of notes in the chord will have a huge array of overtones all locked in harmony and sync. There's great power and magic in music when this grid of overtones locks in like this. Since the ET 5th is so close to true, it's really the ET major 3rd that's the problematic note in that case. 13.69 cents too sharp to be exact. Equal Temperament is the great world of musical comprimise. Steel guitar seems to have this ability to ride the fence on the issue. One reason I love it so much.

IMVHO

I tune them with A and B up, but I am going to start tuning them down after hearing the rationale behind it. I now believe it may be a very good idea. We will see.

I too have a question? For those who tune the beats out (JI), HOW do you tune the E's on your C6 neck?

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 27 May 2004 at 10:25 AM.]

I've looked at, and tried several tuning charts. Do most of these charts take cabinet drop into consideration in the JI tunings?

If so, now that I have a Legrande III, with no drop, how would that affect the chart.

Admittedly, I'm not a math wizard.

"For most players the piano is quite tolerable and to some it sounds beautiful. Yet to most steel players it sounds terrible on the steel guitar."

Carl, I've thought about that alot. I'm not sure, but I believe it has everything to do with the the harmonic makeup of the extended overtones. The steel is much more rich in overtones and they seem to extend higher than piano and many other instruments. Another way to look at it is with the example of distorted electric guitar since distortion greatly expands and enhances the range of strong overtones for the sake of analysis. The guitar power chord being made of a 1, a 5 and an octave 1 on top, sounds really cool with all the distortion overtones. Rock and Roll. As soon as you add the third to the chord, it goes to hell in a wash of mud and warble and ugly beats. Since the ET 5th is within 2 cents of being JI, the power chord sounds in tune and the thick array of overtones are in tune as well. If you do the same thing on an acoustic guitar or clean electric or piano, you can get away with the ET 3rd in there.

With steel, being very overtone-rich like a distorted guitar, that ET 3rd creates a whole array of overtones and beats that clash with the 1-5 interval. It's in the overtones. The same probably goes for piano with its fundamental and first few overtones being so predominant, the extended overtones are less significant and the clashing is quieter. To my ear, the steel just doesn't sound nearly as pretty with a ET G# when playing the basic forms.

IMVVHO

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"I've looked at, and tried several tuning charts. Do most of these charts take cabinet drop into consideration in the JI tunings?

If so, now that I have a Legrande III, with no drop, how would that affect the chart."

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Tony,

I do not believe most charts take into account cabinet drop. However, Jeff Newman's chart may be due to some degree because of cabinet drop. If you have his chart, he tunes the E's (E9th) and the C's (C6) to 442.5.

And while this might be due to cabinet drop, I now believe (whether Jeff realized it or not) that most of this sharping of the E's was due to his thirds being flat of other instruments. So by sharping the entire tuning, it brings those thirds more in tune with other instruments such as the piano and regular guitar. Thus clashes are less whether they be thirds, roots or fifths.

As to the LeGrande III, there probably would be NO need to change your tuning method using tuning charts. The really deciding factor is whether you wish to tune ET or JI or somewhere in between. I believe this is more of a governing factor than whether one has cabinet drop (or not) more or less.

I know of no PSG which has cabinet drop anywhere near the distance JI is from ET, when it comes to our thirds.

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for Jeff Smith:
What are the actual numbers for inharmonicity on various pianos?

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Some devices have certain pianos programmed into them, like those by Yamaha that have some of their pianos in them. However, since brand new pianos of the same make and model will still have significant variances in inharmonicity, any preset that isn't for that specific individual instrument will be at best a close approximation. See the graph here:

http://www.kenfoster.com/PianoTuning/SuperTuning.html

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Six different brand new pianos of the same make and model were measured for the amount of inharmonicity in the temperament notes (F below middle C to the F above) using just the fourth partial. These variations would cause some significant challenges in tuning using a "one size fits all" approach.

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http://www.veritune.com/veritune.asp?id=29

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Automatically calculated tunings

Each product adapts its tuning to fit each individual piano. Although the specific methods vary greatly, they all include taking measurements of the piano's inharmonicity in order to determine a set of target frequencies that will produce a desirable tuning.

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Measurement step required before tuning

In order to calculate a tuning, both the Accu-Tuner and the CyberTuner require that an extra measurement step be performed before tuning can begin. During this measurement step, the inharmonicity is read in order to calculate the tuning. On the Accu-Tuner, this is a manual step in which for three different notes the string is first tuned to a targeted pitch, and then using the buttons the Accu-Tuner is set to the note an octave above, adjusted to stop the lights, and then the stretch numbers are stored. On the CyberTuner, the software guides you through a sequence of playing each of five (or six) notes three times each during which the notes are recorded and then analyzed for inharmonicity. The Verituner has the option of performing all of these measurements simultaneously while tuning the piano thus bypassing any pre-measurement steps.

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http://www.amarilli.co.uk/piano/tngmeter.asp

Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 27 May 2004 at 03:10 PM.]

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php

There are people, who know a fraction of what you know about pianos, who get on there and ask technical questions to some very experienced techs, including Bill Bremmer whom I mentioned earlier.

My guess is that these guys could help you if anyone could.

You'r right about "Power Chords" omitting the thirds, and yes they are "muddy" because they are usually distorted on the guitar and the beats in properly tuned thirds totally mess up a good smooth distortion. The thirds when added must be "detuned" to "fit". Much like PSG thirds. I don't play them on guitar and don't center my playing around thirds, because I won't detune to minimize beats. On a guitar, you're then liable to play out of that one position and that one chord, and your screwed.

On a psg, people might think that they aren't because they don't use distortion, and they have dicked around with enough of their other changes that it will all be covered up in complexity, or compensatory mechanical rubegoldbergaters. Then come the single note runs. There, it must be thusly let that 25 cents is not important when the dicked with change shows up. I don't buy it. I hear it all the time.

I rely heavily on Ocatves and Root fifths. A lot of steel backup that I play, and I notice others' playing is root fifth, "Bakersfieldy".

I play many wide 10 5 3 spilts, and I notice that "in the basement" they sound slightly "obtuse". I MANY times play the same wide "Charlie Pride", Emmy Lou type wide chords at full volume, on jobs, and they sound fine, and not sloppy. Not Justly Intonated at all.

A lot of "tuning" is "subjective". Especially at live stage playing volume. In the basement, or the studio I notice more "beats".

Some of it might even be "Suggestive". I used to browbeat a poor Yammie Minigrand player to distraction. Even when he played an electronic. Poor guy.. an Aries too.. Does it work on crowds? I dunno. I see people do it with other things..

Tuning in the center of the tuner, in my experience, is going to put you closer consistently to things you can adjust for with the left hand.

I suppose cabinet drop is similar. My Bud has very little, ( and the Marrs I have coming next year even less..) but if it works for your G#s with the Bs down, it has got to be true for the opposite. Similarly for the E's, up and down. and then there's the C pedal. Then there's the F#s... Where do you "stop"?

I suppose there are guitars that have less than my Pro III, and I envy those that own one. If there are ones, and I'm sure there are, that are worse, I wouldn't want one. I've tried a couple that were. I didn't buy them.

I have read the whole thread so far since I asked for it, and I see many complex explanations that I had thought of, and some that I have not.

I feel lucky that the simplistic answers I came up with "on my own" over the years, have survived most, if not all of the complex scrutiny. Lucky.

Complexity could have indeed have made it as one of the Seven Deadly Sins, had the others not worked out so well..

Thanks, all from the Top on down to me and mine.

I've gotten my answer.

I'll play my little weekend and summer jobs knowing that tuning straight up, all strings all changes, is probably the best I'm going to do.

Some of them turn out damn good.

Hopefully this weekend with the John Henry Band at Jubitz will. Artie Bechtel will be on guitar, and Beth Henry will be playing her keyboard. It sounded pretty good the last time I played with them.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 May 2004 at 06:57 PM.]

Seems I've spent twice as much time tuning this week as I have playing. But, I am learning that my ears can trick me. What sounds in tune alone, doesn't with a CD or a live band. It appears I'm moving closer to a hybrid between JI and ET.

ps. I do love my new LeGrande III.

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Bach did us a huge service and disservice at the same time by developing ET.

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Bach did us a huge service and disservice at the same time by developing ET.

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Bach didn't develop ET. I think that most of his music was written for various meantone temperaments.

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The Well Temperaments occupy a space chronologically and theoretically between Meantone and Equal Temperament.

Orthodoxy taught until fairly recently that "The Well-Tempered Clavier" was written to show the superiority of Equal Temperament, but consider this:

If someone wanted to prove how a tuning system made any composition work equally well in all keys (Isn't that the point of Equal Temperament?) wouldn't they just compose one highly-varied work and transpose it to all the different keys?

Instead, The Well-Tempered Clavier is a collection of works that clearly seem to highlight the beauty and character (while avoiding the weaknesses) of each key, as it would be tuned in Well Temperament.

This subject was discussed pretty deeply in a couple of threads several months ago, and I searched and collected a large number of articles and pages that discussed this issue. I didn't find a single informed and up-to-date source that defended the idea that The Well-Tempered Clavier was written to defend Equal Temperament. I learned this false notion in a piano tuning program as late as 1979. I then "preached" that idea for years.

This is just one of the bazillion pages available on this subject:

You have my admiration for what you have done. I went back to school, got married and had four kids; but I had to quit playing music to do it. Now I'm back playing, and loving it all.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 June 2004 at 08:52 AM.]

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande