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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Thanks for everyone's input. Of course, none of it did any good since I'm just as curious and just as ignorant of the sound as I was before posting. As much as I live/eat/sleep/breath/dream steel, the thousands of dollars are starting to fly by me a little quickly, so I'll have to wait and earn the next guitar a little more before even considering a purchase.

I have just today installed a Jerry Wallace pickup on my MCI all pull and damn does it sound nice. I have officially decided that no man will ever play "The Turq" besides me, and that I will be buried with it. So I'll have to become a two-guitar man if I ever want to play a p/p.

I felt the Carter "measured up", tone-wise, about 85%. The best p/p's had a certain extra 'zing', a ringing, sustaining, thick, resonant quality, that was undeniable. That 15% is icing on the cake, but substantial...but there are trade-offs. Many players feel that there is Nothing Else But a P/P, End of The Story.

I like the fact that the Carter D-10 weighs about 1/2 as much as the p/p, and that I could change the copedant around myself (I added a complex p4 change to the C6 neck successfully, and am nowhere near mechanically inclined).I'm happy with my Carter, tone and feel-wise. Out of adjustment P/P's can be stiff and tough to play, but properly adjusted by knowledgeable techs, they can play as smoothly as all-pulls.

It is akin to trying to find the "perfect Tele" (or perfect woman, for that matter!)- you can spend all your time chasing it! Everything in life requires some kind of compromise. I like the tone of my instrument very much, but I reckon most steel players have a "wandering ear" !

Anyway, I'd rather be honest and complain about my tone being my hand's fault rather than my horn's fault- 'cause it's true!

[This message was edited by John McGann on 27 June 2004 at 07:48 PM.]

DB

red T-shirt,it seems like lately on every picture I`m in a red T-shirt, hmm.maybe is Sheila right,maybe I should stop spending money on guitars and buy me some clothes...nah

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 27 June 2004 at 07:49 PM.]

If you rely on splits at all, push pulls don't really do them well (they can be done, from what I hear it aint pretty, though!)... ALTHOUGH, the "limitation" of the push pull changer design does lead to one fun, and interesting thing...if you engage a raise and a lower on the same string at the same time, the raise takes precedence, of course, now release the raise, and you go right into the lower, so you can 'anticipate' a lower after a raise without having to release the raise, THEN hit the lower, avoiding that 'stutter' if you are going for a smooth transition.

Willis, I think I must have had a tiny burr or somethin at the changer where the string hooks to the little peg. that's where it always breaks. I sanded it a tiny bit and buffed it with a small stainless wire brush, and polished it, and hadn't broken another one yet. maybe it's fixed.
Terry

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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

quote:

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they're all well designed and conceived instruments.

I can play in socks

quiet and hardly ever have to tune it

I don't think that I have played or felt, or heard any pedal steel that I have experienced that gave me the same feeling as a P/P Emmons

The push pull is heaven

there is a feel and a sound you won't get from anything else.

there aint nothin like it

they are absolutely the best that can be had.

PUSH PULL guitars are rugged, dependable and trustworthy guitars

No doubt, the p/p tone is not only special, but there are different flavors of it, depending on the horn and how it is set up (naturally!)

I have NEVER played an Emmons that I liked.

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Just a review of the comments. I like mine!

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[This message was edited by Reggie Duncan on 04 July 2004 at 07:44 AM.]

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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

John Drury
NTSGA #3

[This message was edited by John Drury on 09 July 2004 at 03:44 PM.]

After playing nothing but all pull Sho~Bud's for thirty years, I recently traded in my 1981 Super~Pro, with 10 and 10, for a 1983 Emmons Push Pull, which now has 8 and 9.

I have now had the Emmons for 5 1/2 months, and have spent untold hours setting it up and adjusting the action to my liking. I did the same when I first bought the Sho~Bud, so this is no surprise.

Here are my observations about the differences between these two opposite ends of the scale:

1: The all pull mechanism on the Super~Pro has three raise holes on the bridge pull finger;
The Emmons push pull fingers have three raise holes
Tie

2: The all pull Sho~Bud had 2 lower holes in the lowering brige finger;
The Emmons only has one lowering position.
All pull has advantage here

3: The Sho~Bud Super~Pro had five-hole cranks on the crossshafts, which can be used to either raise or lower;
The Emmons has one raise and one lower position on its cranks.
The all pull can be setup so that the strings travel almost exactly the same distance at the same time.
All pull wins with the adjustability of the undercarriage.

This being said, what really matters is not how one hooks the raise and lower rods up, or how many holes are available for balancing the pulls/lowers. The Emmons uses little shock springs to take up slack in strings that hit wood before the others do, and when the raises are balanced over the three pull holes the octave strings pull pretty close to the same distance anyway.

I found that after tweaking the pedal travel and bridge pull-holes linkages, and properly adjusting the drop-spring tensions, that this Emmons Push Pull plays faster than my highly tweaked Super~Pro! This is no bull!

The pedal action is very fast and precise. When the pedal stop screw hits wood, it stops dead, with no further travel at the bridge. When I pushed the Super~Pro pedals down hard the stop screw brackets gave a bit, resulting in overshooting of the raised-pedal pitch. Because of this I learned to lighten up on my foot action, which slowed down my fast action playing to compensate. The Emmons Push Pull, with its positive pedal stops, allows me to blast away as hard and fast as I want, with no unwanted sharp detunings.

Another surprise is the lowering knee lever action on the Push Pull. My guitar was originally setup by Mike Cass, I was told, and had adjustable stop-screws on most knee levers. I added stops to all the others myself. The result is that the lowering levers stop solidly also. They are so much easier to push than my Super~Pro's knee levers, I can hardly believe it!

I don't break nearly as many strings on the Emmons as I did on the all pull Sho~Bud. I have not broken my 3rd string since April 20, during which time I have played a couple dozen nights. It may not sound like a big deal to some, but I used to be lucky to get one week on a 3rd string, no matter what brand I used, on the all pull Sho~Bud.

There are other differences, like a huge difference in tone, sustain and harmonics being much better in the Emmons, but some are more a matter of taste and ear, not mechanics, and the OP asked what it is like to play a push pull in comparison to an all pull.

The guitar is quite a bit heavier, but I do take it on the road, as it is my only steel guitar. It takes about the same amount of time to tune on hot days as the Sho~Bud did and it holds its tuning well, once set.

It pays great, sounds fantastic, has sustain, harmonics, "that sound" and solid pedal and knee lever action. I couldn't ask for more.

I hope this helps without being too prejudiced one way or the other.

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Bob "Wiz" Feinberg
AIM Screenname: Wizcrafts
1983 Rosewood Emmons D10 Push-Pull, with 8 pedals and 9 knee levers, George L's E66 pickups and aluminum necks. Nashville 400 amp with Peavey Mod. Emmons pedalbar mounted and Goodrich LDR volume pedals.
I use and endorse Jagwire Strings and accessories.

Keep Steelin' but don't get caught!

[This message was edited by Wiz Feinberg on 07 July 2004 at 06:12 PM.]

Then at the gig in the first set A pedal went on the blink. Suddenly it was pulling 5, 9 and 12 only a half step instead of a whole step. I finished out the set playing in B6 mode or playing E9 like a lap steel. During a long break I flipped it over on stage and tried to figure out the problem. Without knowing how, I got the pull working right on the 5th string, but not 9 and 12. I finished the gig using only the top strings, or playing the bottom ones like a lap steel. Not fun. Now I will have to spend a half day taking the A pedal mechanism apart and putting it back together again. Not fun.

quote:

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The Emmons p/p mechanism provides for two lowers on a string, not one.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

For my double lower on string 8, with RKL the collar on the end of the push rod pushes the lower finger back to lower a half-step from E to Eb. On LKR, with or without RKL engaged, the LKR bell crank pushes the same push rod further to give a whole-step lower. As Larry said, the whole-step lower is tuned at the endplate, and the half-step lower is tuned under the guitar, and very awkwardly I might add. This works because the half-step lower bell crank (which is closer to the changer) has the rod passing through and extending back to the whole-step lower bell crank. The bell cranks essentially work in only one direction. So once the half step crank has pushed the collar on the rod far enough for a half-step lower, the rod is free to continue moving forward to give a whole step lower. I guess you could even have a third lower.

In addition to the split lowers on the 2nd string with RKR, I also lower that string to C# with RKL (my Eb lower lever) to give me what in B6 mode is equivalent to a D up there on C6. I don't know if you would call this a double lower, since it duplicates the longest lower on the RKR split lowers.

My comment above about the awkwardness of tunig stops under the guitar gets to why Buddy Emmons and others moved to all-pull guitars. Buddy has explained in the past that he changed to an all-pull because it was quicker to tune, which was important for studio gigs. In fact on a fairly recent album he brought a p/p into the studio and recorded some of the cuts with it. But then he started having tuning problems, and because he had been playing mostly all-pulls in recent years, he was not efficient at getting the p/p in tune and keeping it there, so he switched to an all-pull for the remainder of the cuts, just to save studio time. Interestingly, no one listening to the recordings could tell which cuts were done with the p/p.

This highlights the fact that the sound differences for the p/p are most evident to the player. But fairly small adjustments in the use of the volume pedal and amp settings apparently adjust for that difference so that the listener doesn't necessarily hear it.

Because of this, I don't think all-pull owners should waste time pining for a p/p. Modern all-pulls have become the reliable workhorses of the working musician. And top pros have made some of the best pedal steel music ever on them. For reliability and quick experimenting with copedent changes they are the best choice. Using a p/p is like owning a temperamental high performance sports car. When everything is optimum it is the best. But at times you or somebody is going to spend a lot of time under the hood. And except for a handful of mechanical whizzes, quick and easy copedent changes on a p/p just aren't realistic.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 July 2004 at 08:54 AM.]

I just bought Don Dixon's 74 Emmons D-10.

Now I need a stiff drink, but soon I'll be tasting the Push/Pull nectar.

I did the initial setup myself and played it for two or three years before turning Mike Cass loose on it. Since then, I rarely touch an allen wrench. It stays in tune so well that the open tuning is all I ever have to mess with on stage. I don't change stuff around on it, however. I have taken the Emmons on a couple of road trips and it does just fine.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

It includes a link to John Lacey's Wilderness Guide to Basic Setup of Emmons Push/Pull Steel Guitar

Also, over on the Carter site they have some animated drawings of how the push/pull changer and rods work.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 14 July 2004 at 02:48 PM.]

It is real.

I received today a 1974 Emmons fatback 8+4, rosewood mica, dual-coil original Emmons pickups.

For the first half of the day, I cursed myself for spending so much money on a guitar that felt like a turd to play. I will need to have it adjusted, for sure.

Tonight I decided to give it a whirl, stiff action be damned. I cranked the Nashville 400 (Pre: 4.5, Post: 9, Low: +6, Mid: -15, Shift: 800, High: +7, Presence: +7) and just played with my mind on my ear instead of my feet and hands.

"That sound" is a real thing. It is undeniable. It's really, really, really rewarding to play.

I have heard a few breathtaking LeGrandes, especially with single coil pickups. This guitar is a LeGrande on steroids.

How can I describe the quality of the sound? It is harmonically rich and resonant. It makes my amp honk, whistle, and sparkle depending on what I catch.

It is full of body. It has punch, and a solid, well structured mid-range even scooped out completely. It has clean highs beautifully tapered as I move up the neck. It never screams, only sings. I can play in the upper stratosphere and make sustained lyrical phrases. That pickup is awesome.

It has unbelievable sustain. I am playing an electric cello.

It has clarity and crispness. All that body exists, but there is no mud. It must be the overtones.

Now I need to replace all the tuning machines (speaking of cello-- they feel like pegs) and name this beautiful horn.

Burton Lee
Denton, TX
MCI Waco D-10 "The Turq"
'74 Emmons Original "???"

[This message was edited by Burton Lee on 26 July 2004 at 06:36 PM.]

I agree the difference is real. If it wasn't, people would not put up with all the undesireable aspects of these guitars.

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I will need to have it adjusted, for sure.

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Burton... please take this comment in the spirit of which it's intended....

If you have to get someone else to "Set up" your guitar, you really should stop playing a while and study the basic mechanics of your instrument...

Guitar technicians exist to save the player time in setting up when for the pro, time is at a premium. I don't wish to sugest that time isn't at a premium with you also.. BUT...reading "Between the lines" I get the impresion that you would rather delegate the adjustment etc to someone else... NOT the way to go initially. IMHO

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Steel players do it without fretting

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http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

[This message was edited by basilh on 30 July 2004 at 11:48 AM.]

The mechanism underneath is not exactly like brain surgery, but there is definitely a careful balancing act to the guitar as a whole. Understanding the way it works, and having the experience of getting it working perfectly are different things. There is a lot of merit to beginning your journey with a guitar in peak condition.

I just got back from Bobby Bowman's and I can tell you without any doubt that his expertise will make my guitar better than I could have ever made it, even with a decade of experience fiddling with the undercarriage. Even more valuable is the time we spent talking about the guitar and music in general. Bobby is an open book, and a really special guy!

If I stick with the p/p, I have no doubt that I'll learn to balance the mechanisms adequately, but I'm certain Bobby's mentoring will have a lot to do with me learning to do it right.