Any suggestions for materials to learn regular music staff reading on PSG? What's available?

At first it seemed that with the constantly changing note scheme (because of the nature of the instrument), that this was something that would be an overwhelming task. But, I'm starting to wonder if the no pedals and no knee levers regular tuning would in fact not be too bad to take on. Then, knowing what the pedals and levers accomplish could just be thought of as options or something. I'm pretty good at reading guitar music. On PSG, I'm starting to think I'm using positions instead of note location knowledge too much.

Thanks for any suggestions.

What hangs you up, of course, is the number of choices available to you with the pedals/levers. What I do is to play the line non-pedal, the analyze the line to see if pedals/levers make the line easier to execute.

I am skeptical of the concept of "sight reading" in terms of creating the best music. Great sight readers can do it, but there are no instruments to my knowledge that have a "sliding floor" like the pedal steel! To get the most expression from a given line requires experimentation to find the most effective position.

On the piano, there is one key to press for any given pitch. What a concept!

[This message was edited by John McGann on 15 October 2004 at 07:32 AM.]

And they are all in a straight line!!!!!

JE:-)>

But you do kind of have to zig zag up to play the blues. (was it John Belushi who said "play more black keys"?)

This may be an unnecessary thing to keep track of but, it works for me. I've memorized at which fret middle C lies for each string (at least those with an open pitch at or lower than midlle C). I do this for each tuning.

As you may know, the unmarked or "invisible" line between the treble and bass lines of staff is middle C. By doing this, I "visualize'" a diagonal line from the higher pitched strings at a lower fret to lower pitched strings at higher frets. This helps me decide the general area on the neck to start from based on the "head" notes or chord to be played.

Hope this helps...somewhat.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 15 October 2004 at 11:29 AM.]

Bobby Lee, I should be able to do what you suggested about the 3rd and 8th fret positions with easy songs right away. I'd been wondering if I should just start with some of the basic guitar books I use to teach with, but I think piano books would actually serve the purpose better. It's starting to sound like there may not be any real method type note reading books for PSG. If there is I'd sure like to know.

Glenn, the diagnal line idea does seem like it will be helpful for determining general position areas. I assume by middle C, we are talking about a true middle C, unlike how you would read a guitar middle C (a regular 6 string guitar sounding an octave lower). I guess that's kind of a silly statement because if not, there would be only one of them (10th string 1st fret). So just as a starting point, reading a middle C for PSG (E9 tuning) one location would be the 1st fret of the 5th string. You could then see the other middle C notes going almost diagnally across the neck and ending on the 13th fret of the 10th string. Tell me if I'm correct and that will get me started.

Erv, Tim and Jim, thanks also.

I'd appreciate anyone's further comments or ideas on this.

Bob P.

[This message was edited by Robert Porri on 15 October 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

Yes, visualizing middle C going diagonally across the neck is correct.

Check out a concert harp (Lyons & Healy)

[This message was edited by Bob Leaman on 15 October 2004 at 05:01 PM.]

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Bob
intonation help

Learning to sight-read the "simpler" stuff probably would be worth it, though. For that, I'd second Bob's suggestion, and I'd add the stuff I mentioned above. You might have to transpose stuff to make it playable.

The thing about playing stuff that's not written for steel is that very often your "positions" just won't work. I think that this is the main benefit of learning to read--it'll force you to figure out ways to play things "out of position." This will lead to you discovering your own personal little "pockets" or ways to connect things. Often, the best way to play something isn't immediately obvious (one of the things that makes sight-reading very difficult, as everybody says), and it takes experimentation to figure it out. To me, though, that process is the best part. It makes me feel more like a steel player and less like the pedal masher I am.

The harp has two rows of pedals, 3 on one side and 4 on the other, seven altogether, each of which can raise (not lower) a string either a 1/2 or whole tone. No lowers, no knee lever combos, no 1 1/2 steps.

3 pedals on one side and 4 pedals on the other, so not as many combos there as you can only play a maximum of two pedals, one per foot. No mashin' adjacent pedals on harp (There is a not-uncommon C6th voicing using 3 pedals).

The D10 has 8 and sometimes 9 pedals, PLUS between 4 and 8 or more knee levers!

And the harp is tuned open to a diatonic scale (Cb major). 7 strings to remember the pitches, then they repeat up the subsequent 6 + octaves. Granted, there are a few more strings (47 total vs. 20 on D10), but each octave lays out exactly the same on the harp. On my C6, about 2 1/2 octaves going across, each octave has different pitched open strings, and is unique. E9, same deal.

On the harp, each pedal effects only the strings across the octaves with the same name, so one pedal effects all the Cb strings in 6 1/2 octaves. Much simpler pedal copedant! A given pedal (say p5) on our horn can raise 2 and lower one- all different pitches, spanning 2 octaves.

A given string on harp can have 3 pitches- open, up 1/2, up whole.

My 3rd AND 4th strings can be open, up 1/2, up whole AND down 1/2.

My 10th string can be open, up whole or down 1 1/2. But no other string has that one...

So, harp seems like a much more orderly instrument to me.

Now for reading (oh yeah, the thread!)- Harp is a lot closer to a piano than steel, because a given pitch is going to happen in one (occasionally two) locations. Last I looked, I could play the E pitch (5th space treble clef, down an octave guitar transposition) on all 10 strings of my C6th neck!

But the harpists earn the right to bitch more about load in and packup!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff.

Joaquin Murphey solos book info and some free stuff : http://www.johnmcgann.com/joaquin.html

[This message was edited by John McGann on 16 October 2004 at 04:47 AM.]

I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it.

My email should be correct in my profile.

Thanks,

Doug Brumley mentioned that Mel Bay's Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar Method is currently out of stock in the Forum catalog. I have an order pending, and expect to get a new shipment from Mel Bay next week that includes several other titles as well.

It is, of course , a lot easier if you know the names of the notes and where every note of every chord is on the first 12 frets.

And yes, you are right about learning non pedal first, the old guys did it that way , so just went smoothly to pedals, when they became available.

Of course, the Great Jerry Byrd just went along and played without pedals and look at what he has accomplished.
CARL DIXON, Where are you????....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

quote:

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Is that book available anywhere, Mike?

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No, it's out of print for years, and I can't reprint it because Mel Bay owns the rights to all the material it contains thats not related specifically to the steel. Norris music in Texas bought all my existing copies 4 or 5 years ago and may have a few left, but I doubt it.

HOWEVER, I've written a short steel guitar supplement to the Mel Bay version, with examples from the Mel Bay book tabbed out.

The plan was to print them and have Scotty and a few other retailers sell them, but it never panned out. But the file is still in my computer and it's not to late to do a limited run. I could also print out individual copies for anybody who wants one. I'd have to charge for this.

quote:

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Taking that a step further, normally only the top three strings qualify for the treble clef, all the rest would have to be written in the bass clef.

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quote:

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Arrangers today usually write as per the pitch, within the treble clef. Taking that a step further, normally only the top three strings qualify for the treble clef, all the rest would have to be written in the bass clef. Oh woe ! I doubt I could ever master that!

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I'm in the 8th position for now, and I am using the B pedal and a position change to the 10th fret on the 3rd string to get the E F G notes. I decided to use the A and B pedals instead of changing positions for now on the 5th and 6th strings, even though at first I thought no pedals would be the way to learn this.

I'm just playing "Mary had a Little Lamb" kind of stuff, but I'm already recogizing notes (on the neck) I'd never thought about before.

I'm a beginner and would love to get a copy of your text on reading music. E-mail correct in profile.

First, if the song is in C, I'll go to the 8th fret, (E9th tuning). I'm assuming you know how to play a C major scale there, and also know how to read a treble clef staff. I see the staff as "intervals", ie. (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8), starting at the root note. I know these intervals on my guitar starting at any relative fret, pertaining to the key signature. I can get rusty from not reading for some time, but it comes back to me quick with practice, thinking in intervals.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 19 October 2004 at 09:12 AM.]

At Fret 8...C Position (forget the pedals/knee levers)

String 1 9th tone or D
String 2 major 7th or B
String 3 major 3rd or E
String 4 Root or C
String 5 major 5th or G
String 6 major 3rd or E
String 7 9th tone or D
String 8 Root or C
String 9 Dominent 7th or Bb
String 10 Major 5th or G

The same formula for string assignment applies to
all of the key positions. You can practice this away
from the instrument while in the Dentist's office,
waiting in a parking lot, sitting on a park bench or any
time you have moments to spare for musical thought.
Some examples:
After memorizing the above you will know that the 9th
string at fret 1 is Eb; the second string at fret 5 is G#;
5th string at fret 10 is A .... etc.

Like anything else, the more you practice the better it
gets and when mastered you can apply the pedals/levers
and establish the notes in your mind by raising or lowering
as dictated by your setup.

Works for me.

Roy,
I sort of know what you wrote about the intervals, but need to think about it more and make it more automatic. But what I don't get is when you said,

"after memorizing the above you will know that the 9th string at fret 1 is Eb; the second string at fret 5 is G#; 5th string at fret 10 is A .... etc."

The way I look at it, there still seems to be a whole lot of work to do, to get from point A (knowing the 8th fret intervals and notes) to point B (knowing the notes on all the other frets). I mean I can figure it out, but I don't see where learning the 8th fret will "automatically" have me knowing other frets without a lot more memorization. Maybe I misunderstood something about what you meant.

a) what scale degree each string is (e.g., the 1st and 7th strings are the 9th pitch, the 2nd string is major 7th, 3rd and 6th strings are the 3rd, 4th and 8th are the roots, etc. This is often easiest to learn for the Key of C, or 8th fret.

b) then you must know (quickly, and this is the part that for me needs practice to get quicker at) what (letter) note IS the 9th, 3rd, 5th, etc. for every key. So that when you move your bar around you can calculate those two steps (a) and (b) quickly enough.

That's why Roy said that once you've learned these relationships at the 8th fret for the key of C, you can move them around. So at the 1st fret (home base for key of F), you would know, quickly, that the 9th string will be the flat-7 of the key, or an Eb, etc. When you move, the numbers stay the same, but the letters change.

To move the above information to the PSG, several programs are available. At least one has been offered for free on this forum.

The basic of these PSG/stringed instrument programs is that you input your tuning and your assigned changes, then specify your activated changes and see the desired scale position/location on the neck.

I tried to talk Dr Peter Gannon of BIAB into integrating one that I wrote into BIAB several years ago, but with no success.

If you are interested, send me an e.mail request, and I will e-mail you some printouts from my program so that you may see what can be done. What I send will be in terms of the tuning/setup that will be on an instrument now being made for me, but will illustrate the program functions. You can edit the forms so you can substitute your own setup information into them.

No, the program is not for sale as maintaining/explaining it would take too much time.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 19 October 2004 at 12:14 PM.]

Once the music starts getting complicated this doesn't work so well, but it's a start, and it makes the task of figuring out which fret to play a given note at a bit easier. If you know that the notes in a given bar outline a C chord, then going to a standard C chord position will probably give you most of the notes right at that fret.

Check out the Prelude from Bach's cello suite no. 1 for an example of how this works--you should be able to find the sheet music free on the internet somewhere.

Thanks. That is understood now. "Just" have to do the work.

Thanks to everyone. I think there is a lot of great information here that will be very helpful.

Jazz guitarist Ted Greene made a good point in one of his jazz books about the pros/cons of being able to play a musical note in several positions on any instrument. He said that often musicians think of this as being more difficult. How do you know which position to start reading/playing from? When, actually, it can be an advantage. We've got more choices as to how/where to play to the notes we're reading. He said it's all in your mindset.

I think it helps, too, if you can determine the key signature of the tune before you start reading/playing the tune. In other words, if you see no sharps, flats, it's in the key of C, one sharp = G, one flat is F, etc. That will give you a position or two that might be a better place to start reading that particular tune from. Maybe the 1, 4, of 5 position of the tune's key signature is a good place to start. Of course, if there are accidentals, then....it's tougher.

One big advantage any fretted instrument has over a piano, of course, is the ability to modulate keys. It's a lot easier to move the song up 1/2 step on our instrument than on a piano.

I think reading music is like anything else, it gets easier the more you do it.