I've been in touch with Peter Wernick, an old friend, who goes by the name of "Dr. Banjo." Pete runs music camps for aspiring players. When I asked him about the problems of learning how to play from reading tablature he equated it with the difference of learning to "recite", when one should be learning how to "speak" the language. He says he's seen this with ESL adults learning to read English. "Sometimes they are fluent, without actually knowing how to put together a simple sentence on their own. That works for some kinds of music, such as classical, or Broadway show
music. But it has not much to do with bluegrass." And, I will ask that we substitute (in this context) "steel" for "bluegrass.

I recall Nils Tuxen telling me about watching Lloyd do a number of shows and how "he never played it the same way twice." We might THINK he did-- after all "San Antonio Rose" is just "San Antonio Rose." But to Lloyd is is just a structure of a tune where the pieces can vary in subtle ways.

Pete says: "I do a lot of group teaching and quite regularly encounter people who have never been taught how to play music with other people, but maybe have had *years* of lessons guiding them through tabs only. So they can (sort of) play one break to various instrumentals, but AMAZINGLY, don't know the chords! They have no idea what to do when people jam on 'Will the Circle Be Unbroken'.
"So how do I deal with individual tab-bound students? I give them the
unpleasant news that I think they've been taught wrong, and then say I'll be showing
them how to speak the language. Luckily, it will use pieces of what they
memorized, but it will also involve starting to develop a fast learning curve in
learning chord progressions, and at some point "hearing" chord changes. This news
bewilders those poor folks who've invested hundreds/thousands of dollars on
lessons and tab books. Sometimes it bums them out. Luckily I have them in the
class long enough so they begin to "get" the other way.
"I don't let people play with books open. Chords are followed by watching the
guitar player (who if no one knows the chords, is allowed to look in a book)...I tell people, 'The Star Spangled Banner' is a really hard song. How did you learn it?"

So Pete hits the crux of the problem. When you learn from Tab you are learning to "recite" but not to "speak."
This is not to say that Tab is "wrong." What Tab can tell us is what positions are being used, and how certain things are phrased.
When I started out I got Jeff's "Music to E9th by." I've never gone through it completely. It was, to me, boring. In was in a hurry to learn to speak. But, I DID listen to it and isolate those few places where I could not figure out how to play the phrase-- and then, the tab gave me guidance.
And... I played with people. I started with playing along with records. They are great people! They do it the same each time, and don't complain when you screw up. I had a few records that were my faves-- two of Kitty Wells, one of Ray Price, one of Loretta, two of Tom T Hall. I just put them on and played along. It is GREAT ear training-- none of them tell you what key they are in... Sometimes I listed to the steel ON the record, most times I didn't.
I learned a lot about how to play and how to "speak."
I rarely spent time working on instrumentals.

But now, we have all this material available to learn from and, in some ways, it has taken the "learning" out of the process.

Just my two cents.

JW

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Then thanks to some lessons from Reece, I was finally on the right track. To those just starting out I highly recommend a live teacher who does not teach tab or just licks! You need someone who will teach music theory as applied to the steel!

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Get the basics...then close the book..use your ears and imagination....a lot better IMHO.
2centsworth.

------------------
Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

Against my better judgement I'm gonna comment..primarily because as I get older my good judgement remains back in the previous years..

here goes..and I pray I don't offend anyone.

Playing music is a gift . Some have been given an enormous gift, some a moderate gift, some a minimal gift and some..well..unfortunately..none at all...

But that does not keep everyone from wanting to play some music.. DESIRE is not a gift..

I suspect our Forum here..like many others covers the full range of "Gifting"...

I read many topics that make no sense to me..but obvioulsy they make sense to those that start them..
example:

"What settings do I use to make my Steel sound like Loyd or Buddy? "

"How do I make my Telecaster sound like Redd Volkaert? "

The answer to me is obvious.. " YOU don't"

This sounds really self serving and maybe it is..but the truth is if 'one' has to ask then 'one' really does not understand the whole picture.

It's the same with TAB.

Although I don't use TAB personally as a regular tool.. there are instances where I should..as a tool..like Winnie mentioned above..to learn where some other player may be taking the phrase from..which really equates to" Which scale position is he or she coming from"...

I recently traded some stuff with Michael Archer and received a Bruce Bouton talk tape thing..kinda like TAB but he just tells you what to do instead of writing it down. I listend to the entire tape..and low and behold..there it was..one part of a phrase that Bruce does so well..signature if you will...I took one part of the phrase and applied it to what I do..it has changed my entire approach and I have used Bruce's phrase to give my playing a face lift..

I'm sure if Bruce was here he would say " Thats not what I did " and I would say " Yeh it is..right here..part of it "..

Tab is a very valuable tool for new players and can also be a very valuable tool for experienced players..but there is a line.

The new player should one day wake up and all of a sudden look at the Steel, in it's most simple form and automatically relate the interval phrasing that the Instrument tunings, Pedals and Knee levers were intended and designed to do. This was not by accident.

Then from there as we listen to music at some point we must automatically understand and detect the Intervals of the songs we hear.

I'm talking simple here..not mainstream Jazz with intervals and cycles that are constantly changing within a song. I'm talkin Hank Willimas..

the so called "Sears and Roebuck " tunes...

Tab is a great starting point but at some point the musician must be able to relate what the TAB is telling you..and even more so..be able to relate to phrases that you hear on records which may be on some tab you have been studying either current or past.

The dots MUST be connected or else the player will be starting from scratch with each new tab they study. Basically starting from almost zero again.

Some players need NO TAB..ever..some need SOME tab sometimes....and ..well..some players will require TAB all the time.

If you are a TAB only player and feel you have connected the dots..try this

the next time you play the track where you are familiar with the tune and tab..run the track pitch up or down a half step or a whole step..then play over it..

If you are having trouble I would recommend this.
Write a simple chord chart,( imperative)

Play behind the track in simple chords until you understand the chord structure and intervals. then Start playing some of the TAB phrases a little at a time until you can feel it, you may already know it but changing keys will make you connect the dots to your Instrument. Nothing has changed but the Bar position and fret markers, everything else is constant. This would be I feel a very good excercise and will remove you from the MECHANICAL mode. Do this for as many tunes as you can.

I clearly make no claims as to being anything more than I am..but I don't care what key the band plays songs in..same key, different key..it's all the same..

I'm not an expert . Just ask my wife.

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 February 2005 at 04:50 AM.]

------------------
zum SD10 peavy vegas 400 peavy session 400
if its not a zum steel it isn't real

Roy you are way to kind..I'll send you money...

here's the link Roy is talkin' about..

Fortunately I can execute now..but I've had a month to practice too...these phrases are now lead in's to totally new phrases..it appears this nonsense never ends !

oh..and keep in mind this thing is at about 85 bpm..the real deal occurs at about 100 bpm or more..that is if it shows up...
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/008069.html

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 February 2005 at 07:23 AM.]

Answer is...whatever turns your crank and starts your car!

As a kid in Halifax NS I went to about three of those group sessions using the number system. The first tunes were "You Are My Sunshine", Aloha Oe(veh?), etc. These were not the tunes that were IN with the crowd at the time.

Hank Snow tunes were in = Blue Ranger etc. on Bluebird records as I recall; so forget the numbers thing, and play with the record. Then get with the "gang" and we would rearrange the song(s)unintentionally..very creative lot we.

Turning sheet music into the number system for a 6 string lap steel tuning was no great feat, ..so I wondered why one should bother. Simply take the piano music and mark the string/fret numbers in that fashion on the sheet where it was needed for a clue. After you had played it a couple of times you would not need it anyway. Same thing for standard guitar.

The pedal steel presented a different problem, but not very; just add the pedal(s)/lever(s) below or above the staff lines, preferably by the chord symbol. I still use that method...it gives the timing also. This caused associating the frets/changes with the chords...learn by osmosis.

Nowadays, just transfer the method to the fake sheets/books if you need to "store it".

If BIAB or sim' would set it up so that the fret/string numbers could be added to the staff presentation, it would be nice.

"Here in the forest primeval, where the murmuring Pines and the Hemlocks stand as the Druids of eld...." That is pretty close for not looking after 58 or so years... music works the same way for me.

14 strings/lines is a bear for straight tablature, ..you have to do it yourself as no one that I know of does it, so the ear and the fake books win for me = go right to the source.

"the mechanical part of the steel isn't a problem its the understanding of music and how to make it."

And THAT is it, in a nutshell.
Too many people think that it is about pedals. It's not.
Those who have had a background in Music and play an instrument already, will be better equipped than those who take up pedal steel with NO prior musical experience.

It is ALL about making music. And THAT comes from the heart.

But, I am glad I did it this way than vice-versa, because now the tabs are just a template for my own ideas. I am adding new fills, turarounds and transitions to my collective pallette that I never had before.

And thanks a lot for your book! I started playing in '73 and it came along at just the right time, I learned a lot. On the other hand I didn't spend much time with the tab, I was already learning from records exactly like you describe, and applying what little I knew to whatever real PLAYING situation I could find, with other people... and THAT'S where I learned.

Now, painting by numbers can be fun, and can show you some things about how different colors and techniques can work together to create a nice image. But after you've learned those things, and extracted the underlying principles from them, you need to stop relying on paint-by-numbers kits and start buying blank canvasses, and generating your own paintings, using the principles you learned during your "training".

"am I making sense here?"

My reply:

sure are. It's a good analogy. To take it a step further... I had a girlfriend who was a good painter. She spent hours at the museum studying thr work of masters up close with a magnifying glass, trying to figure out exactly HOW Rembrant got that candle to burn so brightly.
That was HER tab-- which she used to understand technique, rather than settle into a Rembrant paint-by-number...

JW

To push the analogy a bit, consider that they made/shaped their own brushes, paints, sonic lines/progressions.

I would guess that there were/are lots of "good" artists/composers that could copy others works/styles very well.

Winnie wrote:

quote:

---

So Pete hits the crux of the problem. When you learn from Tab you are learning to "recite" but not to "speak."

---

And just because you are speaking - are you saying anything? If you grew up with a language and speak, and think in that language - you'll get thru life, but you may never be a poet, or author or great orator. There's something else that has to happen. What is that? Talent, practice, desire, love, training, coaching,.... ?

Regarding TAB. I don't believe it's true to say that by just learning TAB "you've learned incorrectly". I think learning from written music has the same problem. If you only learn from sheet music - all you are doing is reciting. Written music is just another written language for how to play an instrument or song. Clearly, sheet music is a level of abstraction above tab with added data and meta-data, (duration, timing,key, dynamics,...) which makes it better at describing the event. But not always. (listen to that church organist bang out a tune) Either one - music or tab -is a fine way to start and augment the process of learning. But how do you get to the next level - playing music ??

Example: I've played with many a symphony player who is an excellent musician and can read like a machine! But put them in the middle of a jam session and they are totally lost. Can't groove, can't improvise, can't hear the changes. The opposite is true for someone who just plays by ear and feel with no concept of basic theory. If you need to have people read a basic chart (even N-numbers) - they have a hard time. I think you need generous helpings of both formal and 'feel' training and experience, sheet music familiarity and TAB (for complex instruments like steel, open-tuning on guitar, etc. ).

Comments like, "knowing another instrument" (or two), "playing with a band", "listening to records and playing along", "enjoying all types of music", "having some talent", "Playing from the heart"... are all right on, and part of the entire process.

I think the crux of the problem is more than one thing. We all learn differently - thinking that one way is the best way for everyone is bad, limiting your options, and trying to rush results are part too. Things take time and in our modern world - we look for short cuts. There are none.

my tuppence,
Chris

btw, Winnie I too have used your great book - but I changed some of the tab for me -
yours truely
- 'grasshopper'

[This message was edited by seldomfed on 07 February 2005 at 01:40 PM.]

Learning can and SHOULD come from many directions, but hte music that means the most to a player is that which comes from the player's own heart and mind. Tab will NOT get you there. For that matter, neither will standard notation. I know a lot of well respected classical and semi-classical (e.g., theatrical) players who couldn't improvise their way out of a wet paper bag.

YOU NEED IT ALL FOLKS. Learn from tab -- that's FINE. But also learn to read music in standard notation. If you don't you're depriving yourself of a whole WORLD of music that is available nowhere else. They call it STANDARD for a reason. Everybody uses it -- for all instruments, all styles. Beethoven to Scott Joplin to Charlie Parker to Roy Rogers. You can find sheet music by just about anyone. BUT if all you can do is read the notes on the page, there's still something missing (IMHO)

What's missing is the ability to play YOURSELF -- your own stuff -- your own way. Only by training your ears to pick it up, either off a record or something you hear in the grocery store -- OR OUT OF YOUR OWN IMAGINATION -- can you create your own music. I believe that a complete steel guitarist should strive to be able to play ANYTHING HE/SHE
* READS (tab or notation)
* HEARS (licks off records, etc.) or (even more importantly)
* IMAGINES

That's my take on it. Anybody who can play a song with feeling from tab can learn to make his/her own music.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.