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Author
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Topic: A Wacky Idea?
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db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 23 March 2005 03:45 PM
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Hey b0b,
Any luck with these contacts?
I am with you on these ideas . . .
I would like to see a synth setup for Pedal Steel. . .
Pickups for more that 6 strings & multiple string trigger interface setups.
I am working on a "selective access" interface for a "more-than-6-string" instrument to a STD 6 string Synth controller.
With PSG there are STD grips and all of the strings are not activated at once!
The "interface" would preferentially direct string commands to "preset" channels.
The "down side" would be that if a certain two strings were to be activated at the same time, no midi controller signal would be sent!
This would be a big step beyond having to have two complete midi controller systems for a 10 or 12 string instrument.
The first application for this system is on a 7 string instrument were two strings share the same midi channel.
It's "out-there", but, I wil keep you informed.
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 23 March 2005 03:52 PM
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I'm not really interested in synth steel, Dan. People seem to confuse the Line6 guitar emulation technology with MIDI, pitch-shifting and synthesizers. It really is nothing of the sort. It changes the balance between the fundamental and overtones coming from each string. The sound itself still originates from the string, not from a MIDI controlled synth.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 23 March 2005 08:34 PM
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b0b,
The two references that I posted were pickup mfgrs. . .
(Nothing directly to do with Synth) . . .
This is just how I got interested in looking into the various pickup possibilities.------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 24 March 2005 at 05:13 PM.] |
db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 24 March 2005 04:52 PM
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A while back I had a thread going called "It's Built Backwards"
to discuss some of the advantages of having the changer at the nut
and the tuning machines at the bridge.
If you built one backwards and used the Piezos . . .
They might be far enough away from the noise of the mechanism.
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 24 March 2005 at 05:12 PM.] |
db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 24 March 2005 04:59 PM
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OH . . .
I just reading Eds' post were he already made mention of this idea . . .Anyway, I think it would help solve the noise problem. Roy P. Thmpsons' "PedalMaster" has the same string spacing at the changer and nut . . .
This type of model would be the best choice in that the basic design lends itself to the "Flip". ------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 24 March 2005 at 05:08 PM.] |
Mark Lind-Hanson
Member From: San Francisco, California, USA
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posted 25 March 2005 03:00 PM
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It's nice someone IS thnking along these lines. Perhaps out of all the input here, someone will be inspired to create something most ofus could actually use ?!? For about a year I have been wondering if some sort of MIDI modifications weren't possible with asteel so you might use any number of prededicated samples (horms, strings, perhaps in conjuncjution with modules, like the Roland sets...) practically, it doesnt seem impossible, but it would need to be something, like the guy was saying, which isn't necc. piezo driven... |
Tom Olson
Member From: Spokane, WA
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posted 31 March 2005 09:20 AM
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instead of piezo p/u's maybe you could use some other type of p/u technology that would lessen or eliminate any problems in regard to picking up pedal noise. For example, what about infrared p/u's (which detect vibration of the strings using IR light)? I don't know much about them -- maybe they wouldn't work. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 31 March 2005 at 11:05 AM.] |
Robert Parent
Member From: Savage, MN
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posted 31 March 2005 09:50 AM
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db,FWIW, I have tried using hall-effect sensors with an old Korg Z3 MIDI pitch to MIDI converter and it does work with a pedal steel. I had a half dozen sensors hooked up and all working about 5-6 years back. I always wanted to build a 10 or 12 string setup and try with the new roland modules but have not had the time to do so. I have also hand wrapped some some coils and I was able to get the to work with the pitch to MIDI converter as well. The hard part was to find some small magnets and the wrapping of coils. |
db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 31 March 2005 07:36 PM
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Hey Robert,
I saw a curriculum paper for a Physics Department project at a University that was devoted to exploring this endeavor.
It is very interesting to find that some one actually tried it and was successful!
Do you remember the Spec's of the components or manufacturer/part numbers?
The technology has come a long way in the past 5-6 years.
The performance must have gone up and the price may have come way down by now.
I have been working on a selective channel-stearing system for getting a 12 string instrument to feed into a STD 6 channel system. (In that you are rarely playing all 12 strings at once. . . But, using "grips" of just 3-5 strings.)
If I ever get around to working on it . . .
It would be helpful to get the "base line" spec' will work.
Thanks,
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 31 March 2005 at 07:49 PM.] |
Robert Parent
Member From: Savage, MN
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posted 01 April 2005 04:33 AM
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Dan,I tried several different parts most from Allegro Micro. I think the biggest change in the past couple years with hall-effect devices is that they now are available in fairly small SMT packages. There are lots of HE devices with various digital outputs but those won't work for this application. You are right with 6 strings covered you can make it all useful on a PSG. For the most part strings 3-8 are what I used. Lower strings present another set of challenges. From a KISS approach I think the small magnetic pickup with an op-amp works just fine. Maybe one of these days I build a winding machine and give this all a try once again. It would be nice to have a MIDI system with all the cool sounds available these days. Thanks for posting, this has been one of the more interesting posts in a long while. |
Jim Peters
Member From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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posted 01 April 2005 06:23 AM
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I appreciate pushing the envelopes on technique and technology,and it is important for someone to do this, but I don't want to play or sound like a saxophone or wurlitzer or B3 or whatever. I have never understood the " I just wanted to play like a horn" mentality. If you want a sax, play a sax. JP |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 01 April 2005 09:17 AM
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I agree, Jim. My original "wacky idea" was to expand the tonal variety of a pedal steel with Variax technology, not to convert it to MIDI so that we could emulate other instruments. I have very little interest in MIDI steel.
The Variax provides an equalizer for each string and gangs them all together in a preset patch. They call this "emulation", but anyone with experienced ears knows that the Variax doesn't really sound like the guitars it proports to emulate. It's simply an electric guitar with a very rich tonal palette. I'd like to do the same thing with a pedal steel.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
Robert Parent
Member From: Savage, MN
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posted 01 April 2005 09:50 AM
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I think some of the same technology applies if you want to model each string or convert each string to a MIDI signal. I personally believe both have their application in the steel world and neither has been explored in much depth. The basic concept is capturing each string as an individual signal and moving on from there. It is this capturing technology that the PSG is lacking at the moment in my opinion. Optics, hall-effect, or magnetics would work and there are others that may as well. It's the application of these technologies into an end user product that is missing for us to enjoy either approach. |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 01 April 2005 11:51 AM
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I guess no one remembers the Condor unit that I referred to in an earlier post. I had one about 30 years ago. They were a pretty strange, and a very advanced,for their time, gadget. They were made for guitars and woodwinds. You could purchase the unit as just the electronics box and pickup, or you could buy the complete set which included a guitar, with the pup mounted, the electronics box and an amplifier. I believe they were designed by the Hammond Organ Co, and I think they were marketed under the Maestro name (Gibson?) I bought mine from CMI (?) when that company owned Gibson and, I believe, Hammond.
The pup was actually a hex style. There were little wound coils with a shield arching over each string. Sorta like a tiny Rick pup. Each coil sent a seperate signal to the electronics box via multi-conductor cord.
The heart of the thing was the electronics unit. The front of the unit had about 20 organ tabs in a line across the front edge. It's been 30 years since I drilled two holes in my 1958 Flying V to mount that pup, but some of the names on the organ tabs were;
Un-amplified guitar
Amplified guitar
Fuzz guitar
Super Fuzz Guitar
Clarinet
Oboe
Bassoon
Trumpet
Piano
Harpsichord
Organ
Octave above
Octave below
Two-string Bass
Four-string Bass
It was pretty wild! You could press all the tabs at once if you felt like it. And I frequently felt like it! The Two-string bass was pretty cool. It would add an octave below on strings 5 and 6, while still leaving in the regular note. This was perfect for Travis picking. Too cool! I believe it worked using Ring Modulation. Very few were sold, and they were quicly discontinued. I always wanted to try a couple of them on a steel, but I doubt that the string-spacing would have been correct. JB |
Carson Leighton
Member From: N.B. Canada
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posted 02 April 2005 03:49 PM
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Bobby Lee, you have a great idea! I haven't read all the posts on this subject, but I have been thinking of something along this same line for some time now. If someone could build a feature into a steel, or and add on, so the volume of the natural harmonics could be controlled, it would open up a whole new world of sound for the pedal steel......Carson |
db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 05 April 2005 06:06 PM
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Hey Carson . . .
Bill Lawrence made an IQ-1200 box a while ago
that did something like what you are taking about.
It's something like the "Vari-Tone" on an ES-345.
I have his description posted on my webspace.
http://www.geocities.com/dbalde.geo/IQ1200.htm
I don't know if he is still making them .. .
But, you might be able to talk him into making one for you.
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 05 April 2005 at 06:09 PM.] |
Carson Leighton
Member From: N.B. Canada
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posted 06 April 2005 04:10 AM
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Dan, thanks for the link. That's along the same line to what I what thinking, but what I had in mind was to enhance the natural harmonic series of a string(s) and be able to control it. The sound would be the same as what we already have, only more of it.
On second thought, maybe we don't need it. It would probably spoil us all.....  |
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