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Author
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Topic: A Wacky Idea?
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 March 2005 12:00 PM
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Two recent inventions suddenly converged in my head the other day:
1. The Variax guitar, which emulates a lot of different guitars. Instead of a traditional pickup the Variax has 6 individual pickups embedded in the bridge saddles. These feed into a electronics system that does the guitar emulations.
2. Ed Packard's new Sierra, which features string tuning as part of the changer finger design. The other end of the string is simply clamped down.
If you combine these two inventions, you could have a pedal steel with the changer and tuners at the nut and the Line6 bridge saddles and electronics. The pedal steel could get a wide variety of tones including acoustic and "12 string" octave effects.
I'm not knocking the traditional pedal steel sound that we all know and love. The guitar could even have a traditional passive pickup as an option that could be switched on.
For those of us who need to change tones a lot this would beat pickup swapping, Pods and other external solutions. The controls would be right on the guitar.
What do you think? Is this just another of my wacky ideas, or is it viable? The latest MF catalog has Variax guitars for $500...------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
Fred Shannon
Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas
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posted 05 March 2005 12:08 PM
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b0b, definitely out of the box thinking. Sounds logical and profitable to this fat cat. When are you gonna' try it?Saw Ed Packard's Beast yesterday at the Dallas bash and man it's really something.
fred ------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904 |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 05 March 2005 12:57 PM
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Now your cookin' b0b!!! Can't the Variax change pitches too? |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 March 2005 01:33 PM
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Mine doesn't change pitches. I think the "acoustic" Variax does. Electronic pitch shifting never sounds very good IMHO. I'd rather pull the string. |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 05 March 2005 02:06 PM
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I hear you b0b, although who knows, that technology might get better too. They do have that future upgrade port right?I was just thinking it might be nice to change a couple notes in the tuning every once and awhile for certain songs. You know....too many changes, not enough knees. Maybe have one KL dedicated to changeable "virtual pulls". The thought of an acoustic PSG or maybe a pull string L5 is almost too much to think about. I say Dare to Dream!!! |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 05 March 2005 02:15 PM
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I've always thought of some kind of box that would automatically transpose the song for you so you could play in the fret of your choice. That would be very cool for the Dobro. How hard could that be? Kieth Hilton, are you listening? |
Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 05 March 2005 03:23 PM
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That has been a serious dream among 6 string guitarists for many years. Remember the Midi converters? The technology just has to develop a little further to be able to make such a device a practical reality. Of course, with enough money it could be constructed now....but the cost would be outrageous. We'll just have to be patient a little longer.------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 March 2005 03:35 PM
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The thing that the Variax does very well is change the timbre of the instrument. I can go from a Les Paul to a Martin flat top with the flick of a switch, and everything in between including Strat, Tele, Gretsch, etc. I know that these sounds would be very useful and unique coming from a pedal steel.
For pitch changing, I use pedals or retune the string. The Variax is like a very sophisticated parametric equalizer with well designed presets. It is not a synthesizer.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
Tony Dingus
Member From: Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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posted 05 March 2005 07:53 PM
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Bobby you could get that banjo sound that you've always wanted. ha ha I couldn't resist
so please don't blackball me from the forum.
I've picked with a guy who had a variax and sounded like a tele when he wanted a tele sound. Bobby forgive me I was just pickin' at you a little. Tony |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 05 March 2005 08:31 PM
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I like it, it would be perfect on a 12 string, just put on two 6 string pickups.You can always STILL have the trad sounds, but add a lot more. |
Rich Weiss
Member From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA
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posted 05 March 2005 10:09 PM
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I have a Variax acoustic. It does emulate a banjo, as well as a sitar, a mandola, a shamisen, and a dozen other vintage guitar models. But I would have to say that the banjo sounds more banjo-like than an actual banjo. Same with the sitar. The acoustic guitars that it models are pretty good, but none of the models have the kind of complexity, ie, overtones and resonance, as does a real acoustic guitar. But it still works well in the context of a mix, or a recording. |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 06 March 2005 12:58 AM
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Guitar Player magazine did a big feature on the Variax when it came out with reviews from several top players, and a few of them (including uber-tone master Steve Morse) mentioned that no matter what they did, the Variax always had a certain "piezo" sound to it. Although many people seem to have accepted that as a necessary modern cost of playing music, I think that acoustic guitars with peizo pickups usually sound gruesome. Those Takamines you hear all over the Grand Ole Opry - god, whatever happened to Martins and microphones? That used to work just fine. Now people have gotten so used to that buzzy, plasticine "acoustic" tone they even use them on records, because it sounds "normal"?!? Have you ever heard Dave Matthews' actual tone? Eeek! I can't for the life of me figure out why, if he wants to play in an rock band, he doesn't just buy a Strat and a Twin Reverb and take a stab at actually sounding good.I am a big fan of carefully-applied electronics - I mean, it's all boards and wires and circuitry, trying to talk about a "natural" electric sound coming out of the wires and circuits of your amp or stereo is eminent foofooism - but I guess if I ever start seeing Variaxes (or their descendants) in the hands of Morse, Eric Johnson, Jeff Beck, Carlos Santana, Steve Vai and other known tone monsters I'll be more inclined to crack open my closed little mind a tad. |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 06 March 2005 06:44 AM
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I hate to rain on the parade, but there's a problem here. The Variax uses peizo pickups, which on a pedal steel, pick up and amplify all the mechanical noise of the pedals.I have experimented with putting peizos on the steel, and no matter where you place them, they still pick up all the noise, even of they are not in contact with the changer. It might be possible to build an interface between the old IVL MIDI pickups and the Line 6 electronics (which are not MIDI based). If that will work, it would the only way to combine the Variax's electronics with a pedal steel guitar. Sorry b0b. It's a great idea, but the obsticals are pretty insurmnountable.
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So many guitars, so little time....
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Drew Howard
Member From: Mason, MI, U.S.A.
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posted 06 March 2005 06:55 AM
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I used a Variax in a local studio and the tracking wasn't 100%. ADD: On some of the sounds there was an ever so slight delay between playing and audio playback. ------------------
Drew Howard - website - Fessy D-10 8/8, Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3
[This message was edited by Drew Howard on 06 March 2005 at 11:34 AM.]
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 06 March 2005 10:04 AM
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tracking? What tracking? The audio signal stays in the analog domain. I don't hear any tracking going on, except maybe for the 12 string effect. I think that the octave strings are synthesized.Piezo noise. I hadn't thought of that. Oh well... Maybe with the Roland hex pickups.[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 06 March 2005 at 10:06 AM.] |
Webb Kline
Member From: Bloomsburg, PA
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posted 06 March 2005 10:56 AM
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Awesome idea. I'll own one. |
Garth Highsmith
Member From:
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posted 06 March 2005 11:21 AM
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.[This message was edited by Garth Highsmith on 09 January 2006 at 08:41 PM.] |
Bengt Erlandsen
Member From: Brekstad, NORWAY
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posted 07 March 2005 12:46 AM
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And what if the Line6 people could tweak the electronics a little bit towards the PSG so instead of having tele, strat ,les paul or whatever sounds, instead one could choose between L.Green, B. Emmons , P.Franklin , ZumSteels, MSA, ShoBuds and such.
That would really be something  |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 07 March 2005 12:33 PM
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I had a friend's Variax for a couple of days. I came away thinkin' "Not yet." Although the sounds were interesting, to me, they all sounded VERY piezo/digital. No comparison to the real thing. I suppose they'd be great if you were in a cover band, and needed to have lots of "OK" sounds available.
Does anyone here remember The Condor unit?
JB |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 07 March 2005 01:15 PM
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Drew, if the variax you tried had a problem, it was withing that specific guitar. I have NEVER had any kind of tracking problem with my Variax. Some of the sounds are quite convincing. Others could be improved upon. But one thing most people don't take into account is that as you change setting on the guitar, in order to get the full benefit of the different models, you also need to change the settings on your amp. I've taken the Variax out to a few jam sessions, and people have frequently commented on how good it sounds. (I like to think my choce of models has something to do with that.) It IS a very happening guitar, and perfect for the player who needs a lot of different sounds, and who otherwise would have to take a bunch of different guitars to a gig. If there were some way to eliminate the mechanical noise, a variax pedal steel guitar would be a formidable instrument. I wish it could be done. BTW there is now a unit that allows Variax owners to add different sounds to their guitars. I don't know of we can add any sound we want, or if we must choose from a library of sounds offered by line 6. Personally, I can't think of anything I'd want that's not already in the guitar. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 07 March 2005 01:27 PM
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It's funny that it sounds "digital" to you, John, because it's not a digital instrument. People assume that you could only do this sort of thing by converting the signal into the digital domain and back again. That's simply not the way that the Variax works.
On "piezo", I've never noticed that bright piezo sound on the electric models. I think that it might depend on what you are running it into. I have a small PA and a Boogie in my music room and the models sound fine through those amps (PA for acoustic, Boogie for electric).
Mike, if the changer was at the nut end, maybe there would be a way to acoustically isolate the bridge saddles without sacrificing sustain.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 07 March 2005 at 01:29 PM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 07 March 2005 01:32 PM
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quote:
... one could choose between L.Green, B. Emmons , P.Franklin , ZumSteels, MSA, ShoBuds and such.
Imagine the complaints, considering what others have said about the technology in this thread already. No, I wouldn't want to be the one claiming that a certain electronic effect made a guitar sound like a Sho-bud or Buddy Emmons!  |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 07 March 2005 09:26 PM
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Bobby, I've tried placing Peizo pickups in different places on my steel, and no matter where I placed them, even on the neck under the first fret, every time I stepped on a pedal, the Peizo picked up the noise.I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that peizo pickups can not be used on a pedal steel guitar. However as I said earlier, I see no reason why an interface cannot be built to allow the Variax electronics can be triggered by a MIDI pickup. Theoretically it should work. And if it does, our existing steels could be retrofitted. I'd love to see that happen, and I'd definately jump on the bandwagon. |
Travis Bernhardt
Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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posted 07 March 2005 10:53 PM
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Could a pedal steel be built specifically to accomodate Variax type technology? I'm thinking along the lines of that Harmos pedal steel with the mechanics at the nut end and cables (Harmos pedal steel thread). Perhaps the cables could run directly into the changer (i.e. no pull rods underneath), leaving no mechanical bits and pieces to scrape against each other. Then, with all the moving parts in one little floating clump by the nut, the creaking and grinding could possibly be isolated entirely from the piezo pickup which would sit at the bridge end. -Travis |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 07 March 2005 11:57 PM
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It does seem as though you could run cables as Travis said, and use lubricated delrin or nylon contact bits to really cut down on noise. Then again, you could try and talk Roland into making a ten string pickup (decaphonic?) that would work with their existing guitar synthesizer units. Then again, if you just want the steel guitar to sit in a different place in a mix, you can use different bars, effects and most particularly a graphic equalizer to drastically change the sonic profile of the instrument. Have you ever tried playing your steel with a ping-pong ball through an autowah envelope follower? Cartoon fury! And, it'll sure wake up a lethargic house cat. |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 08 March 2005 07:36 AM
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Check some of the many years old posts wherein I was describing what has turned out to be the beast and you will find the comments re moving the changer/tuner to the players left, which can then allow other types of pickup to be employed along with the standard type...including Piezo's. Re Piezo based pickups and body/changer noise: I am on the side that says that they can be designed to do the job. Why would I say that? Because I have designed Piezo devices to detect the minute flaws in the hard drives and, also for the other extreme of sonar applications. Not the same as buying an existing Piezo pickup and sticking it on the instrument. The rod/bridge system on the beast and the baby beast allows a quick change to alternative structures and sounds. |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 08 March 2005 09:36 AM
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Bobby Lee, I played the guitar through a Dr. Z Prescription Combo. Perhaps piezo/digital wasn't a good descriptive word combination, but it had that sort of sound to me. Just not real-sounding. Some of the sounds were "okay", but just "okay" is not that great. But as an alternative to carrying a huge bunch of instruments around, it certainly works. I think that, for me, there is too much of the real harmonic content of the real instruments missing in the models. They sound sort of "flat" to me. Probably another bad choice of words! Single-dimensional? I don't know. I was disappointed with the guitar after all the hype that I'd read. |
Charles Turpin
Member From: Mexico, Missouri, USA
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posted 08 March 2005 09:55 AM
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Mike i wondered if the Rolands Guitar Synthsizer that they built for the telecasters would give the same sounds to pedal steel. But they would have to make a bigger pickup for them.
I have a friend that has one on his telecaster and there is that Banjo sound tony is looking for. hehehe
I get the bacnjo sound out of a cigar box, no joke.
One time a friend of mine was in Nashville and we saw a steel player that pretty soon the band was doing a bluegrass song and we where hearing a banjo and couldn't figure out where it was coming from. We got to talk to the steel player during intermission and he told us how to do it. You go buy a cheap cigar that comes in like a plastic tube nad you cut the tube off the same length of your bar. Usingthat for a bar will give you that banjo sound to a tee. Just a mystery of life hehehe. Just thought i would add this in .Zumsteel/ Double 10/ 12 universal/ two Nashville 400s/ Zum volume pedal/Digitec delay ------------------
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Rich Weiss
Member From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA
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posted 08 March 2005 11:53 AM
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I've only used my Variax acoustic on recordings. It does sound 'piezo'. That is the best description I've heard.I actually run mine into a black box, before it goes through a Neve preamp, to Pro Tools, and even then I have to use a compressor and eq plugin to make it sound acceptable. Like I said, in a mix, it does the trick.
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ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 08 March 2005 12:26 PM
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CT: I use the ROLAND GR1 and GK2 pickup on my instruments. Slant the pickup to get the right strings lined up. Use the rubber magnet strips from Home Depot to stick on the neck at a slant. Stick another piece to the bottom of the pickup and slide the pickup to the 6 strings that you want to MIDI. You can take the curve out of the pickup with sand paper if you are careful. |
seldomfed
Member From: Colorado
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posted 08 March 2005 12:48 PM
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I've always wonderd if this could
be modified to the task - clearly it would
be hip on a lap steel simply for changing tunings.
http://www.transperformance.com/video/tuning_example.htm [This message was edited by seldomfed on 08 March 2005 at 12:50 PM.] |
MUSICO
Member From: Jeremy Williams in Spain
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posted 08 March 2005 01:30 PM
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We shouldn't be talking variax...we should be talking Roland VG88....it is a floor pedal that does EXACTLY the same thing as the variax. You need a guitar that has hex pickups...A Godin acoustic or an electric with one of Roland's hex pickups (or 2 for a twelve string PSG)It does banjo, sitar and can retune individual strings...even intelligently HARMONIZE individual strings. One BIG problem of virtual retuning is that the overtones that ring from other strings are all wrong. There is a major manufacturer making MODIFIED roland hexaphonic pickups for use on instruments with 12 strings and non-radiused fretboards!!!!!! I quote from their website....
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Since that time, we have been selling and installing our customized Roland MIDI interface system for new and old ??????? instruments. As authorized Roland dealers we modify the GK-3 pickup to fit the closer string spacing and flatter string profile of The ??????.
----------------------- Your starter for 10 dollars. ¿Who are they? ;-) Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 08 March 2005 03:10 PM
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http://www.stick.com/instruments/midi/ I actually almost bought one of these things once, but then I figured I am so far from really mastering regular and steel guitar, maybe another toy wouldn't help me much... you can send my $10 to b0b. Hmmm.. I wonder what the string spacing is on one of those puppies.... |
MUSICO
Member From: Jeremy Williams in Spain
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posted 09 March 2005 01:20 AM
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I think the string spacing is pretty close to PSG.I have a ztar so I can 2 hand tap (well I could if I could) so a stick is not TOO much of a temptation. I have wondered about a couple of their hexaphonic pickups going into a couple of VG88. It would be the VariaxPSG that bOb was dreaming about. Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 09 March 2005 05:10 AM
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I was musing the other day about how early steel players were basically playing horn lines, and wondered if a harmonizer could be used to modify tone and really become a horn, or string, section? |
Rich Weiss
Member From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA
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posted 09 March 2005 12:17 PM
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quote:
I was musing the other day about how early steel players were basically playing horn lines, and wondered if a harmonizer could be used to modify tone and really become a horn, or string, section?
See? This is the right idea. Instead on guitar and synth players mimicking us and taking away our play, we'll focus on eliminating horn sections. I like it.
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db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 12 March 2005 09:47 PM
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http://www.bunker-guitars.com/index.html
Make Magnetic Hexophonic (single-coil) or any "multiple-string" pickups.
They turn coils on a very small bobbin to allow for less than a 3/8" spacing . . .
I am not sure of the minumum.
You would have to contact them.
Dave may be interested in the idea enough to "do the time" to working out the design details to have them made.
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 12 March 2005 at 10:32 PM.] |
db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 12 March 2005 09:56 PM
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The other "new technology" way to go is with a "Hall-Effect" sensor.
These are used as sensors for cam rotation (RPM) . . .
They are evolving and the price is coming down.
But, I do not know if they are up to the frequency response
and harmonic content capability sensing yet.
They might be close to the "MIDI sensor" fundamental sensing spec'.
But, not the "full-tone-characteristic"-spec' needed for the "Variax".OOOPS...
Almost forgot . . .
Who am I !
Dan Balde ( BTW . . . I do not get this new rule . . .
My profile & email are availible to everyone any time I post!
(?)
If you don't know who I am, it is very easy for anyone to find out!)[This message was edited by db on 12 March 2005 at 10:37 PM.] |
db
Member From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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posted 12 March 2005 10:21 PM
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Also,
Harvey Starr at StarrLabs has had some "doings" with custom Mag-Hexophonic pickups.
http://www.starrlabs.com/
His email address is: harvey@starrlabs.com
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 12 March 2005 at 10:29 PM.] |
b0b
Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA
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posted 13 March 2005 09:54 AM
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Thanks Dan.
(wearing my sysop hat for a moment...) The "use your real name" rule helps to prevent the kind of rudeness and chaos that happens when people can post anonymously. It makes the Forum a calmer place. Also, it's very helpful in the Classified Ads to know who you're dealing with.
Dan, if you or any other long-time member wants a new "real name" membership, just email me and I'll set it up. Your "db" membership was grandfathered in, and I know that you're not a troublemaker.  ------------------
 Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator |
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