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Author
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Topic: Neck Screws - How Much Torque?
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Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 24 March 2005 09:31 AM
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Ed - To whom was your question directed?Lee |
Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 24 March 2005 09:35 AM
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yes Ed to who was you asking that, because i won't try it my Rains is brand new.and i have plenty sustain. ------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 09:51 AM
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Ed,,
While I had my neck loose [not fallen off] I tried it.
Like I stated before, I couldn't hear any Great difference, I was plugged direct to my amp, no pedal. But then I don't know if my ear is qualified for this!! So I went back to "snug" like it was before I started on it.
Larry------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 24 March 2005 10:08 AM
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The question was to anyone that might have done the experiment, ..no person excluded, or designated. |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 24 March 2005 10:18 AM
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Wiz,
I found the cross grain maple dowels in a high end wood working supply shop. They had all kinds of plugs to match the grain of different woods. You could make some on a lathe easily enough, if you had a lathe with a tailpiece so the dowell would be less likely to snap.
You can always use the regular dollar alder dowels you find in any hardware store. Even though you would be drilling a pilot hole and screwing into end grain, it would be end grain that is trapped in a relatively tight hole so that the screw would still have a good hold. In other words, the dowel won't have anywhere to expand or split.
Remember to scratch lengthwise grooves along the sides of the dowel plug for air and glue relief. Use the teeth on a hacksaw blade to scratch the channels.
Chris Lucker
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Roger Edgington
Member From: San Antonio, Texas USA
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posted 24 March 2005 10:48 AM
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Well, you all have my curiosity up so now I have to go tinker a little. My wife was right after all. We do have a screw loose. |
Ron Steenwijk
Member From: Greensburg,PA
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posted 24 March 2005 11:09 AM
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haha I like this discussion.What is it that makes steel players fool around with their steel guitar to try and accomplish something that someone else will not hear.They will be the only ones that do.Ron ------------------
Nikaro SD10 4x6 ,Nikaro SD10 4x5,2 Peavey Ultratube 112 European Steel Guitar Forum
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Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 11:30 AM
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I don't think it's a matter of tweaks that "no one will" hear, at all. We are all trying to get the most out of our guitars, not to mention ourselves. It's kinda like hotrodders. A tweak here, a twist there and, WOW, 5 HP more. Wouldn't mean a thing to the average driver, but to them, it's a big accomplishment and well worth the effortI have always been a curious person, so when I get the urge to try something, I do it...but caution is paramount. Having a return path, to undo what's done, is most important. The neck screw adjustment, for me, was very profitable...a profound improvement. But I guess others' results may vary. ------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) |
Buddy Emmons
Member From: Hermitage, TN USA
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posted 24 March 2005 12:11 PM
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In my case I made the adjustments without an amp because I was familiar with the acoustical characteristics of my guitar. I’ve always been more interested in what my guitars sound like without an amp because that’s where it all starts. After plugging into an amp and realizing something wasn’t right, I pulled the plug and adjusted the acoustical resonance until it was back to what my ear perceived as normal for that guitar. Another experience I had with neck and resonance was while co-designing a keyless Sho-Bud. To hold initial production costs down David Jackson used a commercially available U shaped aluminum channel for a neck insert. Everything worked well mechanically but the sound was shallow and we couldn’t figure out why. During a discussion with David, I leaned over and played a string and put my hand on the aluminum insert. It was purely accidental but the weight of my hand on the neck made the sound of the guitar come alive. There was only one string on the guitar but it was enough to let us know that the neck was our problem. When the prototype was finished, several Nashville players took turns testing it, Johnny Cox for one, and they all agreed that the sound was great. In order for it to be successful I wanted the keyless mechanism to be as easy to put strings on as key models, and it wasn’t, so we scrapped it.
The important part of playing is being happy with what you and only you hear, because when it’s not there, your performance suffers. So when things are right for you, the person on the receiving end actually does hear a difference; he just doesn’t know it.
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John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
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posted 24 March 2005 12:35 PM
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quote:
If the changes are, indeed, imperceptible to our senses, are they changes that we should be concerned with?
Lee, I didn't say that. I said CAN be.
quote:
These changes can be imperceptible to our senses....
That also argues the possibility that the changes CAN be significant and easily noticed. The point I was making was that EVERYTHING you do makes a difference in your guitar's response. Some of these changes you won't notice and others you will, but just because you don't notice them doesn't mean that they're not occurring. |
Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 24 March 2005 12:35 PM
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Well Buddy,thanks a bunch for sharing your experience with us.
i think we are very honored to have a wellknown man here on it who knows all the in's and out's of pedalsteel guitars for so many years. thanks again Buddy ------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 12:55 PM
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Buddy,,
Thanks for your input,,I'm satisfied that in my guitars case, it was strings and not the neck. I'm satisfied with my guitars sound now,,now I just need to work on mine!!
Larry------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 12:59 PM
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Well put, Buddy. Interesting...to think of a steel in terms of it's acoustic properties. I hadn't looked at it that way yet.Ahhhh, the ideas are forming as I type....if I could just find that piezo pickup...hmmmmm. lol Seriously, I love hearing your input...and your amps output, too! Be well, Buddy. ------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 24 March 2005 01:19 PM
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John - I certainly wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was just saying that IF a particular change ends up being imperceptable, should we be concerned. I'm thinking that each guitar designer/builder probably has his own idea how tightly that neck should be attached to the body of the guitar. (Perhaps they don't!) If we purchase a new guitar, from the builder, we shouldn't have to worry about the issue at hand. But, if we purchase a used instrument, we have no way of knowing what the previous owner has done to the guitar. I guess the new owner, if curious enough, could start twisting screws to see if there is any perceptable change. If there is, it would be a simple enough matter to return the screws to their original positions. If the builder is still in business, a call or e-mail to him could probably get your question answered. I'm still amazed that such a simple little thing like a this could affect our beloved instruments. I remember, as a teenager, the first time I ever played with a timing light. Twisting that distributor just a hair, one way or the other, could make a huge difference in the performance of an engine. Lee |
Ron Steenwijk
Member From: Greensburg,PA
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posted 24 March 2005 01:37 PM
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Mike. quote:
Wouldn't mean a thing to the average driver, but to them, it's a big accomplishment and well worth the effort.
Thats exactly what I mean.It's a accomplishment for the person the plays the steel.But it's not something that somebody else but you would hear.Ron |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 25 March 2005 06:46 AM
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Larry; Thanks for the input..mind stating the instrument maker and year of mfg.? |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 25 March 2005 02:10 PM
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Ed,
It's an Emmons S/D-10, 1995,
Larry------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
Waisznor
Member From: Berlin, Germany
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posted 27 March 2005 02:53 AM
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" I use another, very easy way to change the tone from my Emmons P/P. Please follow the pictures.
Horst Waisznor[This message was edited by Waisznor on 27 March 2005 at 03:04 AM.] [This message was edited by Waisznor on 27 March 2005 at 03:06 AM.] [This message was edited by Waisznor on 27 March 2005 at 03:19 AM.]
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Waisznor
Member From: Berlin, Germany
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posted 27 March 2005 03:02 AM
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Sorry, the pics are not perfect![This message was edited by Waisznor on 27 March 2005 at 03:08 AM.] [This message was edited by Waisznor on 27 March 2005 at 03:22 AM.]
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Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 27 March 2005 04:32 AM
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I would like to know if this is the secret to push-pulls that the infamous Bobbe Seymour hinted at. |
Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 27 March 2005 06:15 AM
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So, Waisznor,How does the tone change with tightening or loosening the changer mounting screws? I'm not very familiar with PP guitars, so could you elaborate? ------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 27 March 2005 06:34 AM
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Larry, thanks for confirming the PSG involved. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 27 March 2005 06:49 AM
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Horst is quite correct. If the changer is too tight or too loose, it will affect the tone, or sustain. But listen to John Fabian, everything in the guitar works as a system! Ron Lashley once said that "even one screw in the wrong place can ruin the sound".For the average player, the best advice is to not go "screwing around" underneath the guitar unless there's a serious problem. Have someone else (preferably a better player or a builder/repairman) try the guitar, to ascertain if there really is a problem. In other words... If it ain't broke, don't fix it! |
Waisznor
Member From: Berlin, Germany
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posted 27 March 2005 08:20 AM
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Mike,it is the same effect like Buddy Emmons wrote about tightening and loosening the "neck bolts". Better words for "tone change" are the words BE uses: "acoustical resonance change". My steel is fully loaded, so I can´t reach all the neck bolts. If I tightening or loosening the "changer bolts" on my steel a little bit I can hear a change in the acoustical resonance. But I can´t say which way is good or bad; it is different. If I tightening the bolts very solid, the acoustical resonance is very clean and bright, but somehow sterile to my ears. By loosening the bolts one turn the resonanc comes alive. Horst |
Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 27 March 2005 09:41 AM
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Thanks, Waisznor. I am very curious about this subject, and appreciate all the input I can get, whether it applies to my guitar or not.------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 27 March 2005 05:00 PM
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I just sold Emmons P-P # 1002 D. It was a double 10, six pedals, three knees, It had NO necks. This guitar sounded great. Why then could it make a lot of difference what the torque value is on the screws if not having a neck at all makes no difference? Think about that one boys. Huh? The color of the guitar makes a difference too? What about finger prints? Back to folklore 101. |
Buddy Emmons
Member From: Hermitage, TN USA
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posted 28 March 2005 06:14 AM
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Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 28 March 2005 06:20 AM
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Well ooh' Well!!! my guitar is red isn't a push pull it's a all pull Rains D10 brand new and it's absolutly incrediblenever heared this sound before in all other guitars. and i will not find out with how much the torque of the screws are set. 
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Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 06:21 AM.] [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 06:22 AM.] [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 07:01 AM.] [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 07:02 AM.] [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 07:07 AM.] [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 07:09 AM.] [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 07:10 AM.] [This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 28 March 2005 at 07:13 AM.]
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ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 28 March 2005 06:38 AM
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Those that are on the FEA/FSA email lists have seen experimental evidence of size, string loading, etc. on harmonic content, and harmonic content vs. time = tone & sustain.Here is a little experiment you can do with out using your instrument: Take a tuning fork ... make believe that is the resonant body. Now take other materials and attach them to the tuning fork ...make believe that they are the neck block. What is attached, and how it is attached will determine how the combination sounds/rings. |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 28 March 2005 07:06 AM
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Bobbe
It seems to me that it's not the presence of necks or lack of same, but what the effect of overtightening those necks, if present, has on the rest of the cabinet.Not having necks might in fact be the most resonant situation for a steel cabinet to be in, but we like the look of them. Now, I used to work with a bass player, a former footballer, that didn't have much of a neck to speak of, and he sounded great. But that's another topic, fer sure.  ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Dennis Detweiler
Member From: Solon, Iowa, US
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posted 28 March 2005 07:19 AM
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It seems to make sense. Loosening the neck screws creates the best result. As I did on my U-12 Zum. Taking the necks off should get the same result. And when I tigtened the wood neck on my old U-12 MSA (birdseye neck and body) it resulted in more sustain. Conclusion?...More wood and less metal? Lets all vibrate!
DD
[This message was edited by Dennis Detweiler on 01 April 2005 at 11:02 PM.] |
Wiz Feinberg
Moderator From: Flint, Michigan, USA
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posted 28 March 2005 08:33 AM
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I loosened the screws on my aluminum necks and regained my Emmons Push Pull sound that was lost, along with the harmonics. I have not had a chance to play with the retensioning of these screws to see if there is a happy place between loose and tight. When I do I will post my results.I did tighten up the screws under the right endplate, that secure the changers from the bottom. These are the ones with allenhead screws. With the changer screws tightened all the way, and the neck screws loosened one turn from being snug, the guitar sings like a push Pull should. However, a loose neck does not counter body collapse upon pedalling. I suspect that if I can tighten up the neck (E9) just a little bit, without losing the tone and harmonics again, that it will help counter the slightly audible body collapse effect, on un-pedalled strings.
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Bob "Wiz" Feinberg
1983 Rosewood Emmons D10 Push-Pull, with 8 pedals and 9 knee levers (Crawford Cluster), Lawrence LXR-16 pickups and aluminum necks. Nashville 400 amp with Peavey Mod. Emmons pedalbar mounted, and Goodrich LDR floor volume pedals.
I use and endorse Jagwire Strings and accessories.
Keep Steelin' but don't get caught! Reporting member of SpamCop |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 28 March 2005 10:42 AM
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Herb,
Yes, What difference doeth a neck maketh, if there be no person about to perciveth the being of such, "Hannibal crossed the Alps, but I can't get over you", From the CD of the same name. |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 28 March 2005 12:25 PM
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I think I'm going to run all this by Tilda Plierslip. She's the chief bolt-tightener in our equipment maintenance department.Lee |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 28 March 2005 02:21 PM
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Tilda Plierslip huh? I know her, she is married to my gas station attendant, Phil R. Rupp. |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 28 March 2005 02:22 PM
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If you have ever taken a p/p apart, you will see that the only place the pickup is attached is to the neck, not to the body. That is the reason there is a difference when the screws are tightened or loosened.
Erv |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 28 March 2005 02:31 PM
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Aha! That is interesting, Erv. A new piece of information is introduced. Now, does that apply to any other brands of guitars, or just Emmons push/pull guitars? What about Emmons all-pull guitars? Bobbe - Do you remember Randy Batterydown? Lee |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 28 March 2005 02:33 PM
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Ever notice that a steel guitar sounds much better if you hold the pickup in your hand instead of having it mounted to the body OR the neck? The over tones that are "back fed" into the strings can be cancelled out by having the pickup vibrating in harmony(same frequency) with the strings instead of being in a fixed position FREE from these vibrations. This way the pickup is totally free to sense the "honest" sound of the guitar instead of being forced to create synthetic or untrue false signals for the amplifer.
Bobbe, Now for the humor, "holding the pickup in your hand makes it hard to play harmonics", but easy to find something to scratch your head with between songs". |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 28 March 2005 06:35 PM
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Well guys,,
All I know, is by sheer dumb luck, and some help from some of you guys, I got my guitar playing good again. So with my limited knowlege of the mechanics of a steel, I'm just going to leaveralone!!!!
Larry |
Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 29 March 2005 07:05 AM
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Yes Larry ,better do that, if you're satisfied with sound you have for now just play the steel
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Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED |
The Steel Guitar Forum
