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Author
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Topic: Neck Screws - How Much Torque?
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Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 16 March 2005 12:48 PM
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I've read and heard stories about changing the tone and/or sustain of a guitar by adjusting the torque of the screws used to fasten the neck(s) to the body. Are these stories fact or merely urban legend? Is this something we should send to Myth Busters?Lee, from South Texas |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 19 March 2005 04:44 PM
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Here are some previous discussions.Click Here And Here Any other testimonials out there? |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 19 March 2005 04:47 PM
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I just had another thought. Instead of listening to your guitar after each torque change (and trying to remember what it sounded like), couldn't you just completely loosen the screws that attach the neck to the body and then have someone apply pressure to the neck with their hands, as you play the guitar? Perhaps quicker results? Perhaps no change?Lee |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 19 March 2005 05:14 PM
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"DUMMIE" Me!!!
I've been fighting my Emmons S/D-10 for 2 weeks now. Took it down for cleaning, and casual maintainance. Of course I tightened every thing up "real" GOOD!! It hasn't sounded right since, I've been blaming the strings I put on it, same strings I've used it's intire life [Ron Lashleys]..
I quess ya'll know what I'll be doing tommorrow!
Great post guys,, Thanx.
Larry------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
Buddy Emmons
Member From: Hermitage, TN USA
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posted 20 March 2005 04:45 AM
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Tightening the neck bolts on an old guitar of mine made a difference in the resonance and loosening them to where they previously were, brought the original sound back. This took place around 1975 on a 1968 Emmons push/pull that had a lot of miles on it. My reason for not recommending it everybody was that I didn’t want someone to try it on a new guitar and perhaps lose their sound and never get it back. It takes an ear that can detect the subtle changes in sound while adjusting the tension and isn’t for everybody, but it does work. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 20 March 2005 08:04 AM
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Thanks Buddy. Now that is good information to know.....al  ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
Frank McBride
Member From: Clendenin, West Virginia, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 10:39 AM
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Try this it worked for me. Set your guitar up. sit behind your guitar on the floor. left hand on left legg. screwdriver in right hand. strum the string's. touque screw's untill you get the max. vibration through your left hand,you now have max. sustain. |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 10:49 AM
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Just got thru re-torquing neck screws. Couldn't tell any difference! My ear might not be good enough to detect it! Changed strings again,,Must have been a bad set of strings..Sounds goood again!!Larry ------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" [This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 20 March 2005 at 11:07 AM.]
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Leon Grizzard
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 11:41 AM
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It's like adjusting valves on a car - tighten until you hear a crack, then back off a quarter turn. |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 20 March 2005 12:35 PM
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Frank - Your suggestion reminds me of comments others have made, regarding vibrations felt in the legs of guitars. Their claim is, if you feel the vibrations in the legs of the guitar, it was poorly designed and all the "tone" or "timbre" or whatever you want to call it is being delivered through the legs and down to the floor.Fact? Myth? Opinion? Who knows? Lee |
Frank McBride
Member From: Clendenin, West Virginia, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 11:31 PM
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Well my poorly designed SHO BUD Pro. II custom, sound's better than my emmons or my mullen's. I Will have to try somthing els with the sho bud. Thanks |
Dennis Detweiler
Member From: Solon, Iowa, US
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posted 21 March 2005 04:46 AM
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Ultimate Sustain: Adjust neck screws until the guitar and legs vibrate. Pluck the 10th string on C6th neck and stand back. If the guitar starts moving around the room on a hardwood floor you've reached the max.
DD |
Wiz Feinberg
Moderator From: Flint, Michigan, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 07:08 AM
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I am trying to improve my sustain and harmonics on my 1983 P/P. I tightened the Allen screws that are on the underside of the bridge, close to the right endplate. Then I tighted the center screws on the left endplates and the screws for the nuts. Last, I tightened the screws for the necks. You can probably guess where my tone and sustain went.After reading this thread and others I found, I loosened the screws on the necks and things are sounding a little better. Does anybody know for a certainty which screws should be really tight and which should be looser? This is assuming that the bridge is correctly adjusted for maximum finger travel and the pedal stops hit just a fraction of movement after the pulls hit the body. I'd appreciate any suggestions to maximize my sustain and get the harmonics to jump out and sustain more. ------------------
Bob "Wiz" Feinberg
1983 Rosewood Emmons D10 Push-Pull, with 8 pedals and 9 knee levers (Crawford Cluster), Lawrence LXR-16 pickups and aluminum necks. Nashville 400 amp with Peavey Mod. Emmons pedalbar mounted, and Goodrich LDR floor volume pedals.
I use and endorse Jagwire Strings and accessories.
Keep Steelin' but don't get caught! Reporting member of SpamCop |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 22 March 2005 08:09 AM
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Reminds me of the chap that tightened all the loose screws in the back of his nice new transistor radio...guess what happened.The tweak for most vibration in the body/legs has merit; the frequencies at which the body resonates will be the frequencies (and harmonics thereof) at which the lowest decay (max sustain) will occur...other frequencies will be more quickly absorbed. After thought, ...you could try the glass of water trick. [This message was edited by ed packard on 22 March 2005 at 08:10 AM.]
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Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 22 March 2005 10:03 AM
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hey forumbrothers,i like to say i have a incredible long sustain aswell an superb sound from my Rains D10
and i have the vibrations in the legs. so tell what is wrong with that.
i think there isn't anything wrong it's normal if you have some . let me know your experience on this. cor  Rains D10 8×5 RED |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 01:12 PM
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OK,some body got to do it,does wood necks count?? on sho-bud? |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 06:47 PM
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A week or so ago there was a discussion about this and someone said that wooden necks get better sustain if they are screwed tight. My Emmons push/pull S12 with aluminum neck had been taken apart and put back together by the previous owner. The neck screws were tight. After reading about Buddy's experience somewhere a year or so ago, I loosened up the neck screws and the sustain improved.The leg vibration test simply indicates that all the connections are solid from the bridge and nut to the body and legs. While the whole guitar is vibrating and thus absorbing some energy from the strings, all the mass of the instrument is being used to minimize this wasted vibration. This is better than if a loose connection is absorbing energy by allowing small parts to vibrate uncontrollably. |
Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 08:49 PM
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OK, I happened to be doing some maintenance on my new Fessy last week when I read about this neck screw issue. So, I tightened all the screws to see what would happen. THE TONE AND SUSTAIN WENT TO H$LL!!! GONE!! I was shocked. It sounded like a goose...honk, honk.Well, of course, I loosened them back up, and guess what....NO HELP!! I was very nervous...what had I done!!! There were a couple of neck screws I hadn't been able get to, without removing a cross-shaft. So, I put it off, and put it off.....till today. Just couldn't take it any more! Loosened those last two screws and guess what....OK I'll tell you.....THE TONE AND SUSTAIN CAME BACK IN SPADES!!!! The guitar now has better tone than ever and sustains for forever (well, you know what I mean). I fell in love with my Fessy all over again. Don't know exactly what happened, but all I did was loosen a bunch of screws and just snug them back in. My guess is that there has to be even tension across the neck. All I know is...it worked!! ------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) [This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 22 March 2005 at 08:51 PM.]
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Wiz Feinberg
Moderator From: Flint, Michigan, USA
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posted 23 March 2005 10:00 AM
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Mike Wheeler;
That observation is exactly what I was looking for! I also have a couple of screws that are obscured by brackets and two that have the heads broken off (I got it that way). I also found that many of the screws that fasten the endplates to the body (front-apron, back-apron and under the keyheads (totally stripped)) are stripped or almost stripped in the wood. Thus, I cannot really tighten down the endplates and I am probably losing a lot of sustain at those points. I don't feel the strings vibrate very strongly with my hand on the rear legs. It has been recommended to me to insert a mix of wood putty and Elmers glue into the stripped holes, let it dry overnight, then reset the screws. Does anybody have a better suggestion for a filler to renew the worn out threads in the body holes? Wiz[This message was edited by Wiz Feinberg on 23 March 2005 at 11:17 AM.] |
Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 23 March 2005 11:09 AM
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okay steelbrothers,sounds like if the vibration in the legs is not that much it would be okay, or am i wrong on that? ------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED |
Wiz Feinberg
Moderator From: Flint, Michigan, USA
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posted 23 March 2005 11:22 AM
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Cor;
What I think is that if you cannot feel the vibrations in the legs of your steel you do not have maximum body contact at the endplates, and are losing sustain that could be transferred from the endplates, legs and floor.Others seem to think that this contact is useless, or even counter-productive. I think that the more solid the total assembly is, the better the sustain, but I have learned that this does not apply when it comes to aluminum necks. This is a most interesting thread and I hope that we continue to get input as people experiment and report their findings. Mine pertain to a 1983 Emmons Push Pull, with Rosewood Formica overlays.
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Bob "Wiz" Feinberg
1983 Rosewood Emmons D10 Push-Pull, with 8 pedals and 9 knee levers (Crawford Cluster), Lawrence LXR-16 pickups and aluminum necks. Nashville 400 amp with Peavey Mod. Emmons pedalbar mounted, and Goodrich LDR floor volume pedals.
I use and endorse Jagwire Strings and accessories.
Keep Steelin' but don't get caught! Reporting member of SpamCop |
Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 23 March 2005 11:39 AM
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well Wiz thats exactly what i think.
my Rains guitar is absolutly solid, everything is just fit right and i have a incredible sustain aswell the sound is.
so if i think about it because of i'm interested in this technical knowledge it is pretty normal that there is some vibration in the legs.but as you say well hope more steelers here let know there experience and knowledge because it is a interesting thread. ------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED |
Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 23 March 2005 11:55 AM
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Just for clarification, the "just snug" screws were the neck screws. The end plates and changer assembly are good and tight....if not the thing would flop around everytime I push a knee lever. That combo worked for me.On the stripped screws(?)....if it's the holes in the wood that are stripped, I'd advise taking a couple of toothpicks (1 if round kind, 2 if flat kind), break them in half and dip the fat ends in Elmers Wood Glue and stuff them into the holes (cut off the excess even with the surface)...only one if it's the round kind or two if it's the flat kind for a #6 or #8 hole....then put the screw back in the hole. (learned this from a master cabinet builder) For stripped screws going into metal, use self-tapping screws from the hardware store that are 1 size bigger. If the screws themselves are what's stripped, and the hole is still OK, using a Q-tip wet with WD40, try to clean out the metal shavings from the hole before putting a new screw (same size) in there. If the new screw won't hold, the hole is damaged too, so do the self-tapping screw thing. (got these tips from a machinist) In any case, the end plates have to be solidly attached or the guitar just isn't going to be physically stable. That's my story, and I'm stuck with it! lol ------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) [This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 23 March 2005 at 11:57 AM.]
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Wiz Feinberg
Moderator From: Flint, Michigan, USA
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posted 23 March 2005 11:58 AM
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Agreed Cor.
Thanks for the toothpick tip Mike.It just dawned on me that aluminum necks, although being hollowed out in the middle, do serve a function other than sonic issues. Being modified I-beams, they must have some impact on countering body collapse when pedals are engaged. If that is true, then loosening them too much might increase collapse on un-pedaled strings. There would have to be a point of maximum mutual benefit, where the necks are tight enough to counter the collapse upon pedalling, yet not so tight as to impair sustain. Hmmmm... Wiz[This message was edited by Wiz Feinberg on 23 March 2005 at 02:21 PM.] |
Mike Wheeler
Member From: Columbus, Ohio, USA
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posted 23 March 2005 12:18 PM
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And I agree with you, Wiz. I think there is a balance. The aluminum neck would help stiffen the cabinet to resist drop, but at the same time would seem to hamper the resonance of the wood cabinet. Oh, the mysteries of life....Buddy had it right. We could mess things up real good if we weren't very careful to pay attention to each and every change we make. Experiments could be in order to find that balance, but be prepared for problems. In the course of adjusting, I can see where one could cause other factors to become unbalanced. I think such an experiment should be done with the guitar straight into the amp, no reverb or anything, not even a volume pedal. Then any subtle changes in tone could more easily be detected. Man, that could be a long experiment....there's a lot of screws in a steel!! But then again, the resulting tone improvement could be dazzling. I think I was very lucky with my results. So, it's disclaimer time....kids, don't try this at home. Leave it to professionals, they know what they are doing. lol!! ------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman) |
Cor Muizer Jr
Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 23 March 2005 12:20 PM
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that's true Wiz,IMHO neck's will make the body stiffer or more solid. ------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 23 March 2005 01:41 PM
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It seems as though a lot of this lore is applied to older Emmons guitars. I wonder if any of the current builders have an opinion on the subject.Lee |
John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
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posted 23 March 2005 02:07 PM
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Yes. |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 23 March 2005 02:16 PM
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John - Let me guess. It's a trade secret. |
Dennis Detweiler
Member From: Solon, Iowa, US
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posted 23 March 2005 02:43 PM
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Another factor, the guitars with felt glued to the bottom of the wood body. You might try cutting the felt from underneath the screw heads that fasten the key head, neck and changer. Not sure if removing all felt would help tone or sustain? But, it couldn't hurt.
DD |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 23 March 2005 10:33 PM
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Wiz,
The sawdust and glue or toothpick technique is probably okay for the wallered-out holes on the undersides of the body for cross shaft pillars etc, but I prefer to drill and plug the holes with cross grain maple start all over again. If you are not going to dissassemble the guitar this can be troublesome, however, as you will need to file and sand the plugs flat, and that's hard to do with cross shafts and stuff in the way.
I would at least recommend drilling out/plugging/pilot hole drilling the end plate holes on the aprons. These holes are so often worn out. You may also plug and drill the other end plate holes that have wood screws while you are at it. That is a good way to stop the body crack or split that often is found at the end of the body. While you are at it, check and see if you can use a 5/8" length wood screw rather than the 1/2" Factory Original screw that goes into the aprons.
Get shaft collars on your drill bits so you don't drill through the mica. Don't trust a wad of masking tape to tell you when to stop.
Chris Lucker |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 24 March 2005 05:42 AM
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Lee Baucum, I just can't do it, to much folk lore.
bobbe[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 24 March 2005 at 05:43 AM.] |
Wiz Feinberg
Moderator From: Flint, Michigan, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 05:49 AM
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quote:
Chris Lucker wrote:
The sawdust and glue or toothpick technique is probably okay for the wallered-out holes on the undersides of the body for cross shaft pillars etc, but I prefer to drill and plug the holes with cross grain maple start all over again.
Chris, where can I get some of this cross grain maple and is it available in tiny pieces for use as a plug?Wiz |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 24 March 2005 07:32 AM
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OK. I've got Bobbe's recommended torque setting and his permission to post it here. Please don't shoot the messenger and please don't send any hate mail to Bobbe. Bobbe has built, rebuilt, worked on, resurrected, and repaired more guitars than most of us will ever even see in our lifetimes and he is our friend.He recommends "25 inch pounds of torque". I don't have a torque screw driver, so I asked him if he could describe that amount of torque - lightly snugged or tightly snugged. His reply was "a good medium snug, nowhere near stripping the aluminum, but tight enough to never back out". If you don't have a good torque screwdriver, I suppose you could pack up your guitar and drive over to your local auto dealership and talk to one of the guys in the service department. It wouldn't take but a few minutes to adjust those neck screws, if you felt it was absolutely necessary. Lee |
John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
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posted 24 March 2005 07:42 AM
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Lee,Wrong guess. Current builders all have opinions. Try to remember that you are dealing with a COMPLETE SYSTEM! Every thing you do to the system changes the system's response. These changes can be imperceptible to our senses but they can be demonstrated with proper equipment and techniques. Each system is unique and will not demonstrate the same response to the same changes or stimulii. In other words there is no one-size-fits-all answer and there is no quick fix. You need to take your time and go through the various exercises to achieve the desired results. |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 24 March 2005 08:45 AM
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quote:
These changes can be imperceptible to our senses but they can be demonstrated with proper equipment and techniques.
If the changes are, indeed, imperceptible to our senses, are they changes that we should be concerned with? I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just very curious as to the lore surrounding these neck screws. Lee |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 09:04 AM
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Lee, I don't know much about the "myths'& Lore" But I did tighten mine up, and lost the sustain. I backed them off [loose] then snugged em up, to what I would consider [medium] so as not to back out, that being based on my experience as a heavy duty diesel mech. used a pattern like I would for "engine" head bolts, put on new strings, and every thing came back,, don't know if it was strings? or re-torque that done it.
Larry------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" [This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 24 March 2005 at 09:07 AM.] [This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 24 March 2005 at 09:13 AM.]
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John Fabian
Member From: Mesquite, Texas USA
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posted 24 March 2005 09:10 AM
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If you can't hear it, it makes no difference to you.The same is true for playing in tune, tuning your guitar, and the ever debated detuning of your guitar. If we can't hear it it makes no difference. |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 24 March 2005 09:16 AM
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Kinda like a tree falling in the forrest when no one is around!!lol..
Larry |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 24 March 2005 09:22 AM
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I would be curious to know how your instrument responds re sustain when the Neck screws are completely loosened; any comments?On the BEAST, I do not have a neck block at all. |
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