Does anyone else have a similar setup, and if so how do you work around it? Is it another setup adjustment of some kind?

Thanks -

Jim

I did find that raising the A pedal helped quite a bit. Raising the B lever made it worse. I'm learning that the levers don't need to all be at the same level - it looks nice that way but may not be as playable.

Still (and I noticed another thread with a similar complaint) it doesn't seem to make any sense at all to have the LKL in this spot It would be perfect, though, for the LKR lever and LKL would be ideal even with the A pedal. Then the instrument could be played without any discomfort or twisting motions.

So what's the reason somebody would put the knee levers where they get in the way/make common moves difficult? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 11 July 2005 at 07:39 PM.]

The left knee left on my Carter is between the B & C pedals. This statement was just for reference.

It would be interesting to know from the manufacturers if they have different locations for the levers if they are building a "Day" setup guitar as opposed to an "Emmons" setup guitar. I would think not.

Lastly, there are some MSA players in your area (Mike Perlowin and John McClung are 2 I can think of right now) that I think you should contact and ask them about the placement of the levers on their guitars. They would both be great to have in your circle of friends.

Where the levers (left and right) are now forces me to sit centered at the 12th-13 frets. The right levers are so close together they literally are both in contact with my right leg when static (and my legs aren't big at all). I think I can change the position of the RKL a little bit to provide more room, but it has an odd "hitch" in the middle of the motion - the "free play" part, which is rather tight.

But that LKL contact point is actually 1/2" to the right of center of the C pedal...which doesn't seem correct, even based on any of the positioning, shoes, or other suggestions made.

Seems like a parallel universe thread to the guy with the green guitar.

And it looks to me (having at least a smidgen of mechanical knowledge) that it would take major surgery - a complete dismantling and resetting of several things one crossrod to the left, getting new rods....basically rebuilding the darned thing...to change it. I'm neither up to that challenge nor was I prepared to expend funds for it.

Again, This was shipped as a just serviced, playable instrument. That's what I was looking for - not a project guitar.

Anyway, let me get pics to Winston and John and let the take a peek. amd we'll go on from there. I'll just try to adjust the LKL to a "LK-semi vertical" position for now to get it out of the way, I guess. I have PLENTY to work on adjusting to the string closeness (WAY closer than Dobro) and trying "blocking" (totally foreign and baffling territory to a former flatpicking guitar player).

Thanks guys.

PS - I plead total ignorannce here - but there are different "name" setups apart from copedents? I have no clue what a "Day" or "Emmons" setup is so maybe I'm asking the wrong questions? Do I need to know what setup I have?

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 12 July 2005 at 07:54 PM.]

My Mullen LKL would be right in line with pedal B if hanging perfectly vertical, but I have it a little to the right with its adjustment set screw, so it really hits midway between pedal B and C. Haven't dragged out the MSA beast, but I think the fit is almost exactly the same.

If there's a crossrod hole to the left of your LKL's current position, changing that is not such a big deal; pop off the back plate, loosen some things, move the crossrod. Only new part you're going to need is a longer pull rod from bell crank to the changer. I probably have spares, at your first lesson we'll spend time fiddling with mechanics and you can have a rod or two if I've got them, I plan no more mods to my MSA, it's retired.

You should be sitting with your navel about fret 14-15, not 12-13, so that should solve some fit problems right there.

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E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Webb amp/Profex II

Can't because of the RIGHT knee levers. They have me locked in one spot...the adjustment I mentioned would allow me to move *left*...exactly the wrong way.

"If there's a crossrod hole to the left of your LKL's current position,"

The only open hole is all the way at the end of the guitar. I don't thnik that would work, would it?

It seems every solution brings more problems.

I'm really beginning to think I ended up with a mechanized plant stand. This is really frustrating. I've spent another 90 minutes tonight doing nothing but trying to get this instrument working.

Edited to add - attempted to adjust LKLto a more upright position to get it out of the way, but the end of the lever hits the bottom of the guitar (before it gets to the stop) if I move it - it's already set as far laft as it can possibly go.

"Well, it l©©ks like it has finally happened! Either PSG~Builders have gone bizzerk and have started throwing guitars together in any fashion that fits their fancy or all of a sudden many “pickers” have become painfully handycapped!"

That sounded rather sarcastic, but in this case it looks like a pedal steel modder threw something together in my view. Your other comment was a pretty cold shot.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 12 July 2005 at 09:36 PM.]

Looks like I simply got an unplayable instrument. Amazing that the guy who last worked on it never told his customer, who is innocent in all this IMO.

I'm the one who's stuck with either disposing of it or having it rebuilt. Fabricating parts (even rods) is out of my league - electronics I know, machine-shop work I'm clueless about.

Only then can I even play it enough to decide whether or not to keep it or sell it. Right now I can't even tell, and I hate to put it up for sale without it being in prime shape.

So I'm kind of in limbo right now. I may pursue a Fender 400 on eBay - yes, I know it doesn't have all the Nashville bells and whistles and is an ancient design, but I'm not a country player - plus looking at Fender's original tunings, it's identical (except for the key) to a dobro tuning with added 6th's on the 4th and 8th strings.

Heck, I already play dobro, and have for years - I could have that up and running and be playing it in some reasonable fashion in a matter of days.

Can an MSA Classic D10 be changed to a Day setup without any new parts? i.e. can I just switch the A and C pedal setups?

The Day setup refers to the tuning that Jimmy Day used. When pedals were first added to the E9th tuning, the A and B pedals were combined on one pedal. Then Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day decided to split them. Jimmy put the B to C# change on pedal 3 whereas Buddy put the changes on pedal 1.

Hope this clears up some of the mystery for you.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 15 July 2005 at 07:19 PM.]

Completely wind out the nylon tuner that raises the 4th string when pedal C is pressed, so that the string does not raise.

You can now use the C pedal as an A pedal, as long as you disregard the 10th string.

Just trying to save myself from unecessary twiddling.

Soo it looks like I'll switch it to the Day setup. Fooling around with it, I see why the knee levers should be switched as well - I'm going to want that "lower" from the B pedal, and with this one it'll have to be on the LKL to reach it.

Cool.

I replied to Jeff, but in the meantime any quick hints on how to make changes at the changer end? I can see the needs at the crossrod end and that's easy enough (if a bit time consuming), but I'm not really sure if I just loosen the strings, back the nuts off all the way and reinsert things in the correct holes to switch things or if there is more involved. Suggestions welcome.

Thanks -

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 16 July 2005 at 09:51 AM.]

I already know from the first test described that the Day will work, so I need to do the full switch. If someone can describe how to move things at the change end, I think I'm in good shape.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 16 July 2005 at 10:14 AM.]

I spent all day (pun intended) doing the Day conversion. I learned a lot, swore a lot, got greasy, had problem, fixed problems, and got it all dialed in, finally. Now the pedals are in Day format and it works great and the levers don't get in the way at all!

The knee levers are still an issue, though - the LKR lowers and the LKL raises, which is Emmons...so I have a combination setup. It seems to actually work fine. In emails I've gotten differing opinions - some say leave it right like it is for rock/blues (my tastes), others say it needs to be switched.

The problem is that to switch it requires removing the back plate and switching the bellcranks on the crossrods - as it's set up now to simply reverse the rods means they would be crossing/rubbing on each other in order to get to the right raise/lower holes. One set of bellcranks is short, with only two holes; the other is longer like the rest, with 4 holes (If they both had 4 I could probably run through the center of the front crank and make it work, but it doesn't like this). A major issue is there's also a stop for the linkage that would need to be relocated, and that means drilling and tapping a hole for it, work I'm not equipped to do.

There are NO open crossrods or holes for them either, so it would have to be a switch. I tried it with the existing rods, crossing them to the right holes for a Day setup and it flat didn't work - it was bound up, stuck in places and always wanted to raise with either lever.

On the "combination" setup, you will probably find out that it's going to be real difficult to get the pedal/lever combinations comfortably (if at all) possible if the levers are on your left knee. On example is the very common move from having the A & B pedals down (A chord) to releasing just the A pedal and hitting the lever (assuming it's on your left knee left)that lowers your E's (to get a B7th). This is a natural move for your feet/ankle/leg. With the Day pedals and Emmons knees, you will have to release the A pedal and at the same time be moving your knee in the opposite direction that your ankle is rolling. I think you will find that while performing this move, your foot will start to activate the A pedal again. I have been playing for 34 years and have great command of my left ankle/foot/leg and I can not make that move smoothly at all (actually I can't do it at all without lifting my foot off the pedals and moving it so that I am pressing the B pedal with the right side of my foot as opposed to the left side where the B pedal naturally sits with the DAy tuning).

Anyway, good luck. I know you will get it working to your satisfaction.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 18 July 2005 at 05:37 PM.]

I'll leave it for now and see what happens when I start lessosn, as soon as I can get that going. If I break my ankle, I'll change it...

Once I can get financially to the lesson stage (I need at least the basic equipment working first) then I can decide with some guidance, depending on what I want to do with it. It will take a tech to do the work though - I'm absolutely convinced, after my trials and tribulations just getting the pedals reset, that I have no business fooling with the knee levers, neither do I have the tools I think are needed to do a "switch of ANY kind.

I equate it to doing a fret job on a guitar - something I don't do either. It's not "basic setup" work, it's some major surgery. The work on the MSA might not be had the LKL's been installed right to begin with, or so I gather from the consensus.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 July 2005 at 09:51 PM.]

I stole this link from another post, it's a web site any one playing an older MSA should book mark, scads of parts:
http://www.linkonguitars.ca/index.html

I ordered some myself. Nice work on the pedal changes, don't give up.

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com