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Author
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Topic: 2nd string and 9th string lower
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Al Terhune
Member From: Newcastle, WA
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posted 04 January 2006 07:46 PM
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Are you implying Paul's statement is not enough? He has to prove it to you?Surely I'm reading into this wrong... Al |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 04 January 2006 07:50 PM
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Al, yes, thats correct. My original question asked for specific songs that the ninth string lower or second string whole tone was used on. If Paul could list two or three I could then reference them for examples. Paul doesn't HAVE to prove anything. I am asking for help here. This is a legitimate question.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2006 at 07:51 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2006 at 07:52 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2006 at 07:54 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2006 at 07:56 PM.] |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 04 January 2006 08:23 PM
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Kevin, I can't think of a top 10 song off the top of my head.I'm sure Paul will come back around.Till then. If you have a tape of Paul's, this years St Louis sets. He does a neat fill lick behind the keyboard player using the 9th string lower and the B's to A lower.The song. Today I Started Loving You. He used this change a lot.That's just one that stuck in my head. If you have Tommy White's By Request? There are many examples of the 9th string 1/2 tone lower. I think he may have tab. Again, most if not everyone that contributed to this thread. Gave a good example of how to use the 9th string lower. Having said that. If you're only interested in todays country radio? You'll be fine without it. If you're looking for a WOW how'd he do that change? Try Pauls G# to E change. Or the G# to B change. These are of course on a lot of modern records.[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 04 January 2006 at 08:33 PM.] |
B. Greg Jones
Member From: London, KY USA
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posted 04 January 2006 08:53 PM
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Sammy Kershaw's "You Are The Love Of My Life", went #1 I think. 2nd string whole tone lower on the ride by Mr. Franklin.Greg |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 04 January 2006 09:16 PM
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Okay, thats TWO songs in ten years. One of each example. Show me where on the Billboard top twenty right now that either a ninth string lower or second string whole tone was used. Bobby, so far I agree with your statement.
[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2006 at 09:19 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2006 at 09:20 PM.] |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 04 January 2006 10:27 PM
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Too Much of A Good Thing. Alan Jackson.
Lloyd used the 2nd string whole tone lower.But not for the unison stuff.Well actually in one place he did. Most of the unison licks where done on strings 4&2 with a forward bar slant on string 2 and resolved with string 2 lowered a whole tone. Currently. I got nothing. But I'll bet the 2nd string lower is used on Martina's last CD. |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 04 January 2006 11:36 PM
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I May Hate Myself in The Morning. Lee Ann Womack. Pauls does a real pretty fill with the 2nd string whole tone lower and string 3. B pedal then slide up a fret and release B pedal. As a matter of fact.Paul uses that combo a lot. I have no idea what the top 20 country songs are.I'll bet the 2nd string lower is on at least 1/2 of the songs that have steel. I can't think of any great player that would want to give up the 2nd string lower.Even Lloyd Green. The man who has very few knee's. And not many changes per knee. To me. And I think Paul will agree. Some form of the 2nd string whole tone lower is a must. Wheather you tune it to D and lower a 1/2 or D# and lower a full step. I've got to get a life..............bb |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 05 January 2006 05:37 AM
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Kevin, it seems you are trying to Pidgeon hole this thing..the point is these changes are there for the session players to use if it fits the scenario..it's musical notes in a scale that can be drawn on..if the moment calls for it..Is the point of the question that they are not necessary ? Or perhaps overstated ? I'm not sure anymore where you are taking this. Like I stated earlier..Keith Richards has been playing Guitar on Stones songs for what, 40 years now ? I have never heard him play a Major 7th, or any outside chords..so does that mean they are not good chords or are usless ? No, it means they don't fit his music or playing style..thats all.. Why does it matter if two very important changes on this Instrument are heard on the radio ? Not an arguement, just a question...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 January 2006 at 05:38 AM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 07:14 AM
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The utilization of the 9th string lower, springs forth new resolves, should the steel guitarist bring the 5 string grab into play. The major to 7th change breathes new life into the country song,"I Fall To Pieces." The gliss change is unlimited, requiring knees and pedals released simultaneously.Bill Hankey [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 05 January 2006 at 07:18 AM.] |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2006 08:44 AM
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Bill, I Fall To Pieces is an old piece of music and not modern country. This discussion is about modern country music. Tony, it matters to me because the pull is used 1/100th of the time that the first string whole tone raise is, and is mainly used on ballad playing. We don't play alot of ballads in my band, and no female material at all. My band is mainly a top 40 band. I see use for the change if I did. Bobby, I use the second string half lower all the time so I agree with you on that part. You will not find one song in the top twenty that uses a ninth string lower and won't looking back many years. Its extremely rare.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 08:49 AM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 08:52 AM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 08:55 AM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 08:57 AM.] |
John Poston
Member From: Albuquerque, NM, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 09:03 AM
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Kevin, It appears to me that you need to be more clear about your objectives in posting this thread. I suggest you post a list of all the songs that meet your criteria, whether that is: "one major song on what passes for country radio in the last five years"
"todays top 40 country music"
One that isn't "a real country song anyhow so it doesn't really count."
"a Waylon Jennings or Buck Owens tune"
"on the Billboard top twenty right now" This is an interesting subject but the issue seems to be getting increasingly muddled. Please give us the list of songs which qualify and I'm sure someone will be able to come to you aid. |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2006 09:41 AM
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John, the original question was clear. All modern country songs played on radio in the last five years. People keep giving me examples from ten and thirty years ago. If you look at the posts there were just two examples of the second string whole tone lower and NONE for the ninth string lower. I'll take anything in the last five years.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 10:00 AM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 10:44 AM
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Kevin, trivializing old country music is not my favorite thing to do. To suggest that the 9th string half tone lower isn't used, would be like asking a mechanic to toss away a few sockets from a set. I'm confident that something will turn up that will expel this notion. If not, congratulations! Bill |
Robert Porri
Member From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 10:46 AM
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What a great bunch of examples of how the 9th string lower can be used. I just want to thank Kevin for posting this thread even if pinning down exactly what is desired has proved a little frustrating for everyone. But man!, what great stuff to work with. I do hope that Kevin can get a definitive answer to his question about specific songs. By reading everyone's responses, I'm sure there ARE many examples that will fit the criteria he has set.Bob P. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 11:02 AM
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Kevin, do the guys in your band complain if you use those changes? Does the audience walk out? "Man, that steel player sucks, lowering his 9th string half a tone like that. He should know better. Let's go somewhere else."  |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2006 01:34 PM
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Bobby, I am in a cover band. A really great one. Best musicians I ever worked with. We cover the hits for the audience. That includes all licks played near as perfect as the were recorded. The songs that we play have no use for either ninth string lower and second string whole tone. If any of us veer from the original arrangement it is not acceptable to the band leader. We are booked a year in advance for big money and are an award winning band. I'm not going to take the chance of pi$$ing off the band leader because I want to get fancy on steel. I'm talking Brooks & Dunn, Tim McGraw, Alan Jackson. You know, the usual suspects. But, we also write, record, and perform original material also, and if someone on this forum could have given me SPECIFIC recorded songs as examples of these changes so that I could hear them in context then I would try to incorporate them into my playing.
If someone wants to make some money (Paul, Tommy, or whoever) put a DVD out specific uses of the second and ninth string lowers using them in REAL songs, not just licks. From what I see none exists! The steel community could greatly use that lesson especially if the masters feel that it is an important change that could be used in TODAYS music. Forget what happened thirty years ago. My audience is 23-30 years old and doesn't care about old music. I still stick to my original assertion that those changes are largely (but not totally) unecessary if you are in a top 40 country band. I will look closely at the examples given here in this thread. Bobby Boggs was the only person who answered the question with accuracy. Nearly everyone else (with a couple of exceptions) either dealt in general heresay or gave examples of by gone music.
[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 01:44 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 01:50 PM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 05 January 2006 02:10 PM
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ok then, you answered your own question..
but there is another side to this..Do the session players who have played on all these top 40 songs in the past 5 years have these changes on there Steels ? Maybe the producers of these songs we hear have made it clear..KEEP IT SIMPLE.. " No funny stuff Franklin"... I play in a cover band, we play lots of AJ, GS etc..I attempt to play as much of Pauls signature phrases as I can mangle, but I also add lib. I use these two changes each time out..I try to find more places to use them.. The 9th lower I use very frequently in a descending scale which ends with the B string down a whole tone with the 4th pedal... Rattles the bandstand... |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2006 02:23 PM
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Robert, that was really part of the point in me starting this thread. I think that these two changes have potential but they have not been revealed in lesson form to the steel community as a whole. I think that they should because they would probably be used alot more than they are now. When I go out to see other steel players I almost never hear them use them. They need to be explained in lesson form and I'm not the guy to do it. If they are going to be included in new steel setups then they should be known how to use them effectively. They are no wheres near as straight forward as the other pulls on the guitar.
Tony, you make an excellent point. I hear alot of really simple playing on these recordings (sorry Paul). Sometimes we are thrown a bone and something really tasteful gets played on these top fourty songs. Most of the time not though. I'd love to hear these and other changes used more often.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 02:26 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 02:27 PM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 05 January 2006 02:41 PM
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Kevin, come hang out with me and our band..I use those changes often....they may not be pretty but I use them !here is a track I just did for a friend..it's up on garageband.com I use the 9th lower somewhere in one of the early phrases..I didn't think about it, it just happened.. he sent me his tracks in Yamaha AW format..I loaded them on my machne..played a little ( 3 takes) ..sent it back.. He didn't even know I used the 9th lower..neither did I until I listened to the final takes that he choose.. 1:22 into the song...9th lower in it's most basic use..
http://www.garageband.com/artist/amy7/songs so there ya go, a brand new song, sure it's not on the charts, but it does use the 9th lower ![This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 January 2006 at 04:27 PM.] |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2006 03:03 PM
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Thanks Tony. I think everyone will benefit from hearing this. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 03:52 PM
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In http://soundhost.net/b0b/Downtown.wav the lick that starts at about 0:30 has the second string lowered to C#. It's in the key of F# and I'm at the 10th fret. |
Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 04:09 PM
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So, does anybody know if the new Josh Tuner song "Your Man" uses this change? The part im talkin about pops up on the 5 chord. I cant even get close to it. It really sticks out in the song. I ve heard similar licks on Doug Sahm records but never on the radio. bob |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 05 January 2006 04:20 PM
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Bob Smith, I've never heard the tune.But if you'll post an MP-3 I'll help you with it.Regards Bobby
Edit. Please don't send it via E-mail till Microsoft plugs their leaks.I'm not opening attachments till then...[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 05 January 2006 at 06:13 PM.] |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 05 January 2006 06:09 PM
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Kevin, The thing that bothers me about this. You appear to be a young man. And someone who is interested in learning the steel guitar. If you’re only going to practice the cover licks? Every guy your age is going to pass you. None of the good players practice cover licks. You learn those for the gig. And then have to play them a hundred times. So you spend your spare time working on things you don’t play on the gig. The good stuff. Do you think guys like Wayne Dahl,Randell Curry, Terry Crisp, just to name a few, practice their cover licks for the gig? No they practice things you will not hear at their gig. You’ll hear some of it. If you go down town, “Nashville” to one of the clubs. We all like to show out in front of our pears. Heck, most of us just like to break lose and play. My point is. You’re cheating yourself if you’re only interested in learning what you hear on commercial Country radio. You mentioned, you guys write some of your own material. That’s a golden opportunity to try new things. Another thing. As far along as you are with your playing. You should be able to substitute these changes., “2nd string whole tone lower,9th string ˝ tone lower”, for some of the things you’re already doing with the B pedal. If for no other reason? Just because you can.  It can break the monotony of things. Besides, you’ll be pulling one over on the band leader. And lastly. While it’s true these changes are not as popular as the F# to G# change. And never will be. They're still important. I feel the 2nd string lower is used a lot. But not over used. Which is a good thing. I really like the 9th ˝ tone lower.I use it a lot myself.And, I have a feeling you’ll be hearing it mixed with B to A lower in a top ten country song before long. So stay tuned…….Peace and keep picking……….bb
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Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2006 07:17 PM
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Bobby, I'll bet your mother's wedding ring that I'm in your age bracket. I've been playing music professionally for fourty years. Steel for thirteen. I don't know what gave you that impression. I understand what you are saying, but I play five instruments in my band (I play seven). Six necks altogether. I do not have time to be a steel guitar junky. I know what you are saying and I wish could afford to experiment, but I do not have that luxury because I have to play the other instruments and don't have the time. I am required in my band to replicate parts, thats my job. I do have some leeway in some of the material we do. I will NEVER be in the class of the steel players that you mention. I found out a long time ago that learning stuff on steel that you don't use is a waste of time. There was a point where I could play some of John Hughey's and Buddy Emmons advanced C6th stuff flawlessly. I forgot it all after six months of not playing it. I only proved to myself that I could do it. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 07:22 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 January 2006 at 07:41 PM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 05 January 2006 07:39 PM
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Well Kevin , you really did just explain it..If your playing position in the band is to only replicate parts then you are correct..these two changes are not common and you may never have a use for them.But what Bobby Boggs states is exactly dead on correct..it may not be correct for your bandstand position but it is correct for all aspiring musicians who practice there individual Instrument routinely, like me for example. I play Steel and some Tele in our band..mostly Steel..I replicate signature phrases for the tunes we do..sometimes thats all we do for some tunes, exactly like the vinyl..BUT..we also play many tunes where we can all cut loose..and we do....say goodbye to the signature phrases...these are the tunes I practice for, not the ones with the radio licks... I think now knowing your specific gig requirement and your position in the band it is safe to say.. CLOSE THIS THREAD..we ain't going anywhere with it but around and around... |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 05 January 2006 07:47 PM
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Rats. I should have known you were a utility guy. No offense. I wish I could play more than one instrument well. I really wish I could sing. But that's another story. This does make for a different playing field. Wish I had known before I pecked out all these post. Anyway, good luck to you.As long as you enjoy what you're doing. And get payed good for it. Well, it don't get much better than that........Regards.......bb |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2006 08:54 PM
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Thanks Bobby. I always enjoy your posts. |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 05 January 2006 10:49 PM
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Kevin,
Why don't you just lower your 2'nd string a half only, forget about the rest and continue being a "copy" if that is what blows your whistle and puts the bucks in your wallet?
Other than for your personal information about current songs with steel, I see no value or expansion to your question.
Many have shown you a lot of uses for the changes in question, new and old songs. If that is not enough for you to "expand", then why linger on such a dumb "no answer to your liking" question.
I don't mean this in a frivulous or hurtful manner. But my goodness man, these people have opened their hearts and knowledge up to you and it all appears to be "water poured on a duck's back" in your acceptance.
Go on with what it is that you want to do and drop this senceless and pointless endevor.
Some people just can't see the forest for the trees.------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com |
Al Terhune
Member From: Newcastle, WA
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posted 05 January 2006 11:24 PM
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Whoosh...I agree, Bobby Bowman!Al |
Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 06 January 2006 04:36 AM
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Thanks Bobby, ill try and post a clip of the song part. |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 06 January 2006 04:58 AM
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"water poured on a duck's back" ? well that pretty much sums it up for this transplanted Yankee... t |
John Poston
Member From: Albuquerque, NM, USA
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posted 06 January 2006 09:51 AM
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I just found this quote in an old music magazine clipping. I thought it was strangely relevant. Not sure of the year but it's pretty old."Can anyone locate a hillbilly 78 in which G# and B are raised independently of each other?" |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 06 January 2006 10:23 AM
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Bobby, if you read the original question and have reading comprehension then you will understand that the vast majority of answers never pertained to the utility of using the second and ninth string lower on TODAY'S top ten modern country music played on the radio. Not thirty years ago, not ten years ago. I'm not interested in Night Life, Blues, or Patsy Cline songs. Bobby Boggs was one of the few who understood the question. By the way, I do only lower my second string half way. Thers no need to lower it any further with the music that I am required to play. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 06 January 2006 11:27 AM
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I don't have the 1st string F# to G# raise on my guitars, and I probably never will. It's a change that's unnecessary for the music I play, and I see no reason to add it.
Kevin, as a "utility man" in a top 40 band, you only need to play certain licks invented by other players. Those players have certain changes on their guitars. You can configure your guitar to match the licks that they've come up with in the past 5 years, but Murphy's Law dictates that as soon as you do that there will be a new lick out of Nashville that you can't play.
Considering that Paul Franklin has read this topic, it's entirely possible that he recorded something yesterday with a 9th string lower, and you'll have to cover that tune next month. If I were in a top 40 cover band, I'd match Paul's copedent change for change just to cover anything he's likely to come up with. Whether it was on a "hit" in the last 5 years is irrelevant - it could be on the next #1 song.------------------
 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog |
Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 06 January 2006 02:18 PM
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Kevin,
I do have good comprehension of what I read. That's exactly why I posted what I did. You're riding a dead horse to even a deeper death. Just do it your way and settle for that and I'm pretty sure we will too.
BB------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 06 January 2006 04:04 PM
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Bobby Bowman
If you've got the time, I'd like you to put Paul F's copedent on my Fessenden, Sonny Garrish's copedent on my Emmons, and Dan Dugmore's copedent on my Sho-Bud. That way, I've got all the bases covered should I ever get a call for a cover band. ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 06 January 2006 04:27 PM
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I just did a major session in NYC and I saw the guy in charge of checking pedal steel set ups. He usually does everything through his network of evil minions down in Nashville. He rarely gets to destroy country music in person so it was a rare sighting. I got to tell you, as usual, Kevin has got it completely right. He saw that I had the forbidden changes on my steel and knew that I have been influenced by his nemesis through the forum. He figured I would try to save real country music by sneaking in those pedal changes so he made me remove them. I feel so ashamed and dirty inside but his evil was too powerful! Thank God we have steel players such as Kevin that have the strength to fight this vast and dark conspiracy. I had my chance but was too weak. Forgive me forum land !Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 06 January 2006 at 04:29 PM.] |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 17 January 2006 12:36 AM
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Well, you've just about convinced me 100% that I'm on the right track at my old~age, in deciding that from now on I'm playing what suites me and if anyone likes it, I'll do it for them if they wish, or otherwise; I'll just keep trudging on into oblivian!  ------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
’05 D–10 Derby – (6 & 8)
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
Newest Steel |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 17 January 2006 02:17 AM
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MP3 below..sorry Kevin, for me, it's hard to believe this thread is still active. I used to drive Corvettes..
The speedometer went up to 160.. the speed limit where I live is 35..
I drove about 45 or 50...( uhh..ohhh) Whats the point of having a Car that goes 160 ?
Show me where I can drive it 160 mph... If the point once again is that these are useless changes..because we do not hear them on the radio.. then you are really doing yourself a dis-service for not KNOWING how/when to use them..and even worse..for playing in a band that will not offer you the opportunity to PLAY your Instrument...not out of the zone. but not allowing any creatiivity at all...not evevn a few notes ! Sounds to me that someone is dictating to you how to play your own Instrument.. By the way , right or wrong, I use the FULL tone lower on the 2nd string in AJ's USA Today..part of a passing phrase back to the root...certainly a song in the past 5 years..make that 1 year...maybe 6 months... here it is..short mp3 simple, sloppy..early Am 1/2 cup coffee lick..
USA
phrase full tone lower on last phrase before returning to the root. Sure, it may not be 100% accurate, but are you telling me that if I played this with your band the band leader would fire me for playing that last phrase with the full tone lower on the 2nd string ? If he even knows that it's used he must be one GREAT Steel player...far beyond whatever player I may ever become...
Paul, sorry for the mangle......but if I could play it exactly 100% correct , like you, then I might be the one doing sessions all day in Nashville and you might be the one driving around NC and SC in a Sales job !  [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 January 2006 at 03:11 AM.]
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