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http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage

Many festivals would not allow electric bass until the late 70's. My bass player had to buy an upright, or we would not have been allowed to play most bluegrass venues, even on the progressive west coast, in '75-80. Now electric bass is generally accepted, but other electric instruments aren't as a rule.

(edited to correct the song title, thanx Sonny, you are correct. )

[This message was edited by James Morehead on 18 March 2006 at 04:40 PM.]

Ok - it doesn't.

;-)

No that it's nt fun to play bluegrass tunes in an electric setting - I've done it for years. But a "bluegrass band" by definition is an acoustic string band. It's a particular type of sound, and when you add steel, or electric guitar, or keys, it's not a "bluegrass band". It's a "band playing bluegrass songs".

There's a gigantic difference. Mostly I think it's probably only noticed by bluegrass players - most people hear a banjo in ANYTHING and say - "oh, listen - a bluegrass band".

And oddly, bluegrass banjo as we know it wasn't even part of the first bluegrass bands. Bill Monroe always thought fiddle was the critical part, along with his mandolin. And NO guitar leads - guitar was a backup-only instrument. he wildest guitar part in early bluegrass was Lester Flatt's "G" run. It was revolutionary. There were other, but it really was Doc Watson and Clarence White who brought guitar flatpicking to the forefront in bluegrass...and made it acceptable. Sort of. Some people still thought guitar leads were heresy, even up to the early 70's.

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http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage

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Ok, enough bluegrass 101.

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Thanks, Jim - now that we have the authoritative word that the Osborne Bros, Jim and Jesse, and J.D. Crowe and the New South are not bluegrass because they have used electric instruments, I think I'll sleep better at night.

Sorry, man - maybe Steve Hinson is right, and I should just skip the argument - after all, it is a purely a matter of definition and opinion. But since the "pure acoustic" definition folks feel free to state their opinions loudly and forcefully, I'll state mine. IMHO, bluegrass is a feel, and it matters not if a doghouse or electric bass is keeping that low end going. Don't get me wrong - I love acoustic bluegrass, and I have played in acoustic bluegrass bands in the past. But, to me, if it feels like bluegrass, it is bluegrass, and I don't care what the instrumentation is. Definitions are really nothing more than codified aggregate opinions, and there is no longer uniform agreement on this, IMHO.

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And oddly, bluegrass banjo as we know it wasn't even part of the first bluegrass bands.

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Yes, there is evolution, even in bluegrass. Believe it or not, it's OK for this to continue. Bluegrass does not have to continue a state of arrested development in perpetuity. A musical style either grows, or dies and becomes a museum piece.

This type of debate has raged in several styles of music. There are people who still insist that real blues is only played acoustically, and real folk music is only played acoustically. Those ideas were dead and buried a long time ago by guys like Muddy Waters, Lightnin' Hopkins, and Bob Dylan, but some people will still argue that. To get college-age "folk audiences" to listen to Muddy and Lightnin' in the late 50s and early 60s, they had them play acoustically. But that's just marketing, and so is this preoccupation with acoustic in bluegrass.

I also chuckle at the concept of "pure acoustic instruments", when I look at the amount of electronics used to project that "pure acoustic tone" to a large auditorium or stadium-size audience. A piezo pickup is a pickup, and often pretty bloody electric-sounding. It's an electric instrument in that context.

To me, the electrified music mentioned earlier, not to mention the New Grass movement is exciting music, and bluegrass at that. I believe that a lot of modern pedal steel playing, with its fast licks oriented approach, owes a lot to those pioneering steel players who burned it up 30-35 years ago, and continue to do so. I'll tell ya', I wouldn't want to be the one to tell Doug Jernigan that his playing on "Gone, Gone, Gone" on the "My Home is in the Hall of Fame" album by J.D. Crowe ain't bluegrass.

{In fact, check out the J.D. Crowe "Live in Japan album from that same period - late 70s - for acoustic versions of those same tunes. Aside from the absence of steel, they are both extremely similar, and definitely bluegrass.}

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John Kalament's ORIGINAL question concerned steel in bluegrass music.

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Here was John's original question:

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I have a chance to play with a Blue Grass band and just was wondering how much the Pedal Steel is used in this type of music.

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Predictably, the point was very quickly made that if there's steel in it, it ain't bluegrass. Or electric bass, or electric anything. To me, that kind of comment just closes all discussion off. Really, how can we discuss steel in bluegrass music when its very presence makes it "not bluegrass", by very definition?

Well, we don't all agree. Several answered to John, essentially, "here are some examples of PSG in bluegrass music", and others argued that the instrumentation of the bluegrass style is not chiseled in stone. I sure don't see what any of this has to do with the sex of the posters.

How do you have a rational discussion with somebody who thinks like that?

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[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 18 March 2006 at 09:14 PM.]

I think it is possible to have a rational discussion on this. It simply requires that we respect each others right to see things differently without resorting to insult.

No other definition or catagory matters.

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It's not just bluegrass players that get stuck in the mindset you speak of. It's very common in classical, jazz, blues, country, folk, rockabilly, metal, and lots of other styles. These kind of stylistic purists don't bother me

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What you say about people in other genres is true Dave. The "bluegrass nazi" type mindset exists in all genres. Classical musicans may be among the word.

But their attitude DOES bother me.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's fine that some people want to preserve musical traditions. In fact I think it;s important that tney be preserved. But it doesn't follow that EVERYBODY has to preserve them.

This is personal for me because my CDs defy tradition, and they've received a certain amount of rejection for that reason alone.

Now I understand and accept that not everybody is going to like my stuff. That's just life. But I've been told by 2 different classical music college teachers (and one well known jazz guitarist) that they refused to even listen. The "know" without having heard it that it's no good. They "know" without having heard it that I must have played the music country style, simply because I played it on a steel guitar.

All I have ever asked of anybody is that they listen with an open mind. Apparently these purists are incapable of doing that. They are so wrapped up in their attitude that the music is written in stone and must not altered in any way by any performer, that they put the music in a strait jacket.

I'm not offended when somebody doesn't like my stuff. But I'm VERY offended by the attitude these people have shown by their refusal to even listen to it.

The Close Minded are not worth wasting the effort on. Neither are The Begrudgers. It's their loss that they can't enjoy more kinds of music.

Lots of things are more fun with the lights on- knowwhaddimean?

I have played lots of bluegrass with lots of great musicians including Tony Trischka, Russ Barenberg, Tim O'Brien, Sam Bush, Peter Rowan, Richard Greene etc. and I don't think any of them would have a problem with a great musician playing in the band, pedal steel or whatever. Most of the time, it's much more down to the driver than the car.

Fun fact (as Jim pointed out above, but bears repeating): Before Flatt and Scruggs joined Bill Monroe, he had ACCORDION in the band. Played a female, yet.

Bluegrass was a very adventuresome music in it's original form- a real American melting pot of blues, country music and even swing- check out the original Monroe/Flatt and Scruggs (YES the records were released as "Bill Monroe And His Blue Grass Boys" in 1945-49, not the '50's) and you'll hear walking bass lines (gasp-jazz!) and Grappelli-influenced fiddling.

Did the Osborne Brothers (Sonny and Marie ) having electric bass make them "not bluegrass"?

As Goliath would say: "I don't know, Davie..."

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by Anti-Curmudgeon John McGann on 19 March 2006 at 07:51 AM.]

I think this is all relevant to the original point of the thread. In my opinion, the use of instruments like PSG in bluegrass has, to a large extent, been choked off by censure and intimidation. How else do you describe the behavior of audience members that catcall and boo a bluegrass band with an electric instrument and loudly walk out in a huff? I've seen it a couple of times. I don't think most audiences are like that now, but some may still be. Anybody contemplating playing PSG in this context should be aware of the issue.

2005 IBMA Award for Song of the Year:

"Me And John And Paul" (written by Harley Allen), performed by the Grascals - with Lloyd Green on Pedal Steel Guitar...

Kind Regards, Walter

www.lloydgreentribute.com
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

[This message was edited by Walter Stettner on 19 March 2006 at 12:05 PM.]

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www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37

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By 1948 "Bluegrass" was a genuine genre and was solidified during the "Golden Years" of the fifties. The term "Bluegrass" was first used in print during this period.

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I seen it on the Internet, so it must be true

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 March 2006 at 12:53 PM.]