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Author
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Topic: Mica vs. Lacquer...a different question
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Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 23 March 2006 09:53 AM
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A forum search will turn up discussions of comparisons between these materials over the years but my question is different (I think--I don't recall this coming up)----is a natural finish with nice figured wood riskier than mica over non-ornamental wood (rock maple or whatever else is usually used) regarding stability of the wood as pertains to warping, shrinking, etc? Is highly figured wood inherently more prone to instability because of the very attributes of its grain that make it look so good? |
David Wren
Member From: Placerville, California, USA
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posted 23 March 2006 10:27 AM
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Can't answer as a wood specialist, however my 11 year old laquer finished maple Carter S12 has been subjected to cold damp conditions, direct sunlight, and high summer temps in a vehicle..... so far it has only darkened to a even more beautiful finish. I do understand that rapid warming of a guitar subjected to freezing temps can cause cracking of the finish, so I alway let the case and guitar warm up together.However dropping your bar on it is quite another thing :-) ------------------
Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com
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Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 23 March 2006 10:29 AM
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quote:
Is highly figured wood inherently more prone to instability because of the very attributes of its grain that make it look so good?
Yes it is Jon. You have hit on a very good point. Consider GFI's reason for the dieboard. (incorrectly termed "plywood") Those in the know will agree that dieboard is much more stable, with more resonance, as well as being stronger than birdseye maple. ------------------
I'd rather be opinionated, than apathetic! |
Stu Schulman
Member From: anchorage,alaska
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posted 23 March 2006 10:43 AM
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Jon:My guess is that if the wood is dried correctly that it shouldn't be a problem,I think that it has to be air dried for many years.I also think that the GFI would bring out different frequencies than maple,Not more resonance ,just different.This is just my guess. |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 23 March 2006 12:24 PM
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I have a little wood crafting experiance, (in my opinion) as long as the guitar is built properly you should have years of enjoyment, I have seen very old instruments there finishes are very "sound" My old sho-bud only has scratches but the laminate is solid. Now temperatures can have an impact but if you take care of your finish and baby it you should get years of enjoyment, somebody mentioned that his lacquer fadded to a more beutifull shade this is true and the result I'm sure is a gorgeous finish. I love laquer finishes myself personally, I didn't get a laquer finish this time on my new guitar since I really didn't want to worry about accidently scratching it (not to say it won't happen anyway)and the cost but they are beutiful. |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 23 March 2006 01:09 PM
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The preferences between mica and lacquered guitars is like the difference between Mounds and Almond Joy. Somedays the lacquered guitars look good to me and other days the sharp, clean lines of a mica guitar are very appealing. A person really needs several of each! 
Erv |
Tony Smart
Member From: Harlow. Essex. England
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posted 23 March 2006 01:26 PM
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Wood experts - what's the difference between ply and dieboard?
Tony |
Mike Ester
Member From: New Braunfels, Texas, USA
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posted 23 March 2006 02:01 PM
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I like lacquer, but I'm always afraid of ruining it. Hence, my decision to go mica. |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 23 March 2006 02:01 PM
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Just look at the greatest violins in history and you will see beautiful figure in the maple. If these masters who made these ever thought that the figure in the wood would make for an instrument that would warp or not sound as good as plain unfigured maple then you would see just ordinary looking backs and sides as this wood is easily found.Figured maple is more expensive and harder to come by. The time and cost of applying a finish to highlight the wood adds quite a bit to the cost of the guitar. That is a better reason why some builders don't use it. Easier to just glue on some plastic. You will notice that the rather expensive and sought after Bigsby guitars are made of figured maple. Many old Sho Buds and MSA and others are also. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 23 March 2006 02:19 PM
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Plywood is generally a cheap wood, such as pine. It's made up of 3-5 layers, and it usually contains voids and knots. Die-board is made from much harder wood, such as hard-rock maple. It has more (thinner) plies, and contains no voids or knots. It's heavier, far more rigid, and much stronger and resistant to warping than ordinary plywood.Addendum...from an email I sent to Tony... Many years ago, a friend gave me a piece of heavy dieboard, about 3' x 5'. It was about 1 1/4" thick, and weighed about 90 pounds! It has 21 plies, plus a thin veneer on both sides. As I had no other use for it at the time, I made a workbench-top out of it. It's so hard, it's nearly impossible to drive a nail into it, and needless to say, in over 20 years there's been no warping or sagging, despite all the junk and tools I pile on it. I imagine that piece of wood would cost a couple hundred dollars at today's prices. [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 23 March 2006 at 05:15 PM.] |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 23 March 2006 05:11 PM
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Having one of each, I can say that the dieboard/mica seems to be for more durable than the maple/lacquer, but I think the maple lacquer one sounds better. I prefer to use the dieboard/mica one for playing outdoors. ------------------
My web site
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
Member From: Clinton, Missouri USA
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posted 23 March 2006 05:30 PM
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But Mike, that's only important if you care about TONE!!!!  |
MARK GILES
Member From: HAMILTON, TEXAS
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posted 23 March 2006 06:05 PM
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The question was about the stability of figured woods. Stability of the wood is due more to the cut of the wood rather than the amount of figure in the wood. A flat sawn board is more unstable than a quarter sawn board. ALL wood moves depending on the amount of moisture it absorbs or gives up. No amount of time or finish will stop this, it will only slow the process down. Fiddles, acoustic guitars, mandolins, etc., are made with quarter sawn wood, hence less warpage and movement. Steels with mica also move, you just may not see the effects of it as readily. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 23 March 2006 06:29 PM
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Stradavarious had trouble finding good formica trees, so he was forced to use the easier to find wooden trees. Things were rough in 1799, and then there was the constant danger of Nauga attacks near the great forests. Later these little rascals were hunted down and killed for their hides. The hides were later used to make pads for LDG models. (where's my coffee?) |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 23 March 2006 08:49 PM
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Oh Bobbe..What about those Tuppers? When they go out to dinner, whatsa...  EJL |
Skip Edwards
Member From: LA,CA
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posted 23 March 2006 09:18 PM
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Let's not forget that in the '60's the Sparkle Naugas were hunted almost to extinction by Kustom. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 23 March 2006 10:04 PM
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You are correct Skip! Skip, My sec. said I got an e-mail from you today and she accidentally erased it, send me another one so I don't have to fire her!
Bobbster,
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BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 23 March 2006 10:05 PM
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Mark Giles, appreciated your input on wood here!
Bobbe |
Skip Edwards
Member From: LA,CA
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posted 23 March 2006 10:30 PM
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Bobbe, it wasn't me.. I didn't send you an email today.
But I will if you'd like... |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 23 March 2006 11:06 PM
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Then do I fire her or not? |
Skip Edwards
Member From: LA,CA
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posted 23 March 2006 11:26 PM
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Well... if she bears any resemblance to the other gals I've seen on your site, I'd say keep her.What the hey... keep her anyway. |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 23 March 2006 11:27 PM
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Bobbe, its not her fault, its Skips fault for not sending the email! Don't be so tough on your hired help.
Jerry |
John Davis
Member From: Cambridge, U.K.
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posted 23 March 2006 11:27 PM
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Bobbe you bin out in the sun too long!! |
Alan Harrison
Member From: Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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posted 24 March 2006 04:18 AM
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Don't Blame the Bobbster, he has altitude poisioning, I guess from flying to high...Gee, I hope the spelling is ok on this! |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 24 March 2006 04:40 AM
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Mark. In regards to using quarter sawn wood for guitars, vintage Fender guitars never used quartersawn. All the necks and bodies are just plain slab sawn pieces. Conventional lumber processing only yields a couple of boards from each log that are cut on the quarter and those are always culled out for speciality sales at much higher prices. Recently, Fender has offered a custom model guitar with a quarter sawn neck at a much higher price point.As for using slab sawn wood for a Fender style or even for a steel guitar neck/body, if the piece of wood is slabbed with the grain running nicely from side to side then you have a much more stable piece of wood than one with the grain running diagonal. Also the tighter the grain pattern the stronger the piece will be. Most of your quarter sawn wood on acoustic instruments is found in the top for sure and as quartered as you can get in the back. |
MARK GILES
Member From: HAMILTON, TEXAS
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posted 24 March 2006 05:54 AM
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Bill, You are correct on the usage of woods by Fender and others. There again, It is not necessarily the amount of figure in the wood, as the question asked, but the grain in the wood. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 24 March 2006 07:05 AM
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Some above have stated that highly figured lacquer steels will last a long time, and of course there are many around that proove that. However, the original question is the RELATIVE durability of highly figured versus even grained pieces. It might take another 50 years or more to answer that question. Nevertheless, I saw somewhere (but can't remember exactly where) some comments about this, I think from Shot Jackson, or maybe Buddy Emmons quoting Shot. The gist was that even-grained pieces sound a little better, because the highly figured pieces have uneven density and flaws. That seemed to be one of the reasons BE used even-grained maple and formica - the other reasons were to prevent cigarette burns and scratches. I don't remember that durability was mentioned. However (and I'm no expert on wood), it stands to reason that the uneven density of the highly figured pieces would be less durable. But it may be only in the very long run that one would observe that difference. And by the way, the Bigsbys and early Sho-Buds I have seen (mostly only in photos) were mostly even-grained, and had very little if any birdseyes and swirls - nothing like the later Sho-Buds.In plywood and die board, the glue or resin between the wood sheets is denser, and stronger in some ways than wood. I think the resin has more compressive strength, but is more rigid and brittle. The wood is less rigid and brittle. Together they complement each other and make something stronger than either alone. Think of the old bakelite Rickies. Something like that is between the rock maple layers of dieboard. It is part wood, part resin. As mentioned above, plywood uses soft junk pine, and probably not the same quality of glue. |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 24 March 2006 09:33 AM
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There seems to be some confusion here that stems from the original question. The grain of the wood and the figure in the wood are two totally different entities.The "grain" of the wood is measured by looking at the end of the board and measuring the growth rings and the way that the grain runs.
The "figure" is the curl patterns or birdseye pattern or the blister pattern or any of the other patterns that appear in maple. You can have two pieces of maple with very similar grain patterns and totally different figure patterns. The sound of instruments using woods of the same grain will not be different or more subject to warping and such if one is made from a piece of maple that has a nice figure in it and the other does not. I have made 30+ guitars from raw maple lumber and have several thousand board feet of figured maple that I have had for over 25 years. In picking wood for an instrument, what I usually look for is a tighter grain for the parts of the instrument that are under the most stress, such as the neck, or on a steel-the top surface and neck. The body of the guitar or the front and back aprons could be made from a less dense grain piece. The amount of figure in the maple is not necessarily directly linked to the tightness or wideness of grain. I have found that birdseye maple is usually much tighter grained that other maples and makes for a nice bright sounding neck that is very strong. On the other hand, I have seen birdseye necks that are wide grained and much weaker. The ShoBud company must have been able to come up with a nice supplier of birdseye maple as I am always seeing pics on the net of the ShoBud made Fender guitars that are finished black but when you look under the guitar you see all this beautiful birdseye figure!! In regards to dieboard or ply, I don't care what the consensus is, when you take different thin layers of wood that usually comes from different trees and glue it up in a fashion where there is a layer of wood and then a layer of glue and repeat this 5 or 10 or whatever times, you no longer have the sonic character of a solid piece of wood. You trade off quite a bit in order to gain the consistancy of plywood/dieboard. Certainly not saying that fine guitars are not made with these materials, just much different sounding that solid wood instruments. There is a place for all of these types of steel guitars, solid wood, plywood, dieboards, plastic/mica covered, lacquered,carbon composites etc. |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 24 March 2006 11:50 AM
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I went to an estate sale. There was an early 40's Gibson L-5 with very straight grained wood. Very much unlike the other L-5s I've seen and played. The dearly-departed's son told me that his dad had custom-ordered it that way from Gibson, because he thought straight-grained wood sounded better. He was a big band and jazz guy.Was he right? I dunno, but it was the loudest L-5 I ever played, even with old strings, it was a cannon. Seemed it's voice was not as high-pitched as the others.
My Dynacord Cora, (60's German alien 6-string) has a neck that sounds similar to dieboard. 42 thin laminations, and no need for a truss rod.
Click on Cora on the left. http://www.greenbuddha.de/guitars/index_b.php?lang=en |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 24 March 2006 12:25 PM
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John. I was interested in buying a nice Gibson non cutaway archtop so I stopped into a shop here in the Atlanta area that had a dozen to pic from. I found several that sounded great and were of plain unfigured maple. Once again, I think the figure is just cosmetic in most cases and the grain and wood density makes the most difference sonically. |
John De Maille
Member From: Merrick,N.Y. U.S.A.
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posted 24 March 2006 01:52 PM
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Jon,
In answer to your question- the only real catalyst to warping, or stability, is moisture. If a steel is built with unseasoned hardwood, it will find a new shape, as it looses its moisture content and is stressed at the same time. The only possible difference that, I can think of between figured and unfigured hardwood, is the resonance of the wood. I-M-O, the straighter grained wood should give a truer tone, wheras, in a figured wood, the linear obstructions, especially a burl, might retard some resonance. But, those obstructions might be what gives a steel its character, tonally wise.
As to stability comparisions, I don't think there's a reason for concern. After all, the steel body might be stained once, twice or even three times, then many coats of lacquer. A laminated guitar has contact cement and the laminate adhered to it. The underside usually is painted, shot with clear, or covered in a glued on cloth. The cause for concern that, I see, is the ends of the wood. I've never looked, but, hopefully the steel builders are addressing that too. |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 24 March 2006 02:35 PM
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quote:
when you take different thin layers of wood that usually comes from different trees and glue it up in a fashion where there is a layer of wood and then a layer of glue and repeat this 5 or 10 or whatever times, you no longer have the sonic character of a solid piece of wood.
Ihis is bourne out by the different sound qualities between my maple/lacquer and dieboard/mica guitars. I can really hear the difference. Moreover, as you know, I supervised the reissue CDs or Reece's early work, some of which was recorded on a dieboard/mica guitar and some on a maple lacquer one, and I believe I can tell from listening to the recordings which songs were recorded on which instruments. ------------------
My web site
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Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 24 March 2006 02:53 PM
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I've laid out on this discussion because good stuff was coming in. Thanks for all the input. |
MARK GILES
Member From: HAMILTON, TEXAS
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posted 24 March 2006 05:00 PM
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Bill you are correct in that grain and figure are two separate things. Figured wood is definitely for cosmetics. By the way,would you be interested in parting with some of your several thousand feet of figured lumber? I'm always looking. As apparently you are. Nice to see another wood guy here. |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 24 March 2006 08:34 PM
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Nope. ;-)Mark. Bell just went off. You the fellow who makes the nice wooden bodies for Fessenden?[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 24 March 2006 at 08:37 PM.] |
Calvin Walley
Member From: colorado city colorado, USA
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posted 24 March 2006 09:30 PM
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quarter sawn wood is most often used to make things like axe or hammer handle's. the quarter sawing gives it a straighter grain , another factor to consider is : if the ambiant moisture content is higher than the water content of the wood, the wood will swell over time . like when you move a guitar from a dry climate (south west ) to a wet climate (south east) |
Darryl Hattenhauer
Member From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
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posted 26 March 2006 10:23 PM
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Hey, Erv. You're right. Sometimes you want Mounds, and sometimes you want Almond Joy. Because sometimes you feel like a nut, and sometimes you don't. Unless you're Bobbe, who always feels like a nut because he always is one. Who was Straddlevarious? Didn't he invent the first fiddle with an aluminum neck? The one with a bigsby on it? ------------------
"Drinking up the future, and living down the past"--unknown singer in Phoenix |
MARK GILES
Member From: HAMILTON, TEXAS
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posted 27 March 2006 06:18 AM
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Bill, yes and a few other builders as well.
I suppose the "nope" was in answer to the question about your wood. OH well, just thought I'd ask. |
Don Powalka
Member From: Wisconsin, USA
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posted 27 March 2006 03:15 PM
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I'm a woodworker myself and haven't had a lot of experience with figured wood, but I do find that one of the most important things to do to maintain stability in a wood project is getting the wood sealed up as soon as possible after assembly and on all surfaces. The other thing I watch for is evenly machining each piece I run through my planer. Unless you want water skis, you have to take a bite out of each side of a board to keep it straight. I've seen plywood and particle board warp if mica is applied to one side and the opposite side isn't sealed somehow. |
Martin Weenick
Member From: Lecanto, FL, USA
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posted 28 March 2006 02:50 AM
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Mark Giles, you might want to go to "nwtimber.com" and check out their stock. All their wood is photographed by individual board in color. Really nice quilted and flame maple. Also musical billets. It is all kiln dried down to 6%. They are not cheap but carry quality wood. Each board is numbered and you pick the board you want. They are great people to deal with. You may already know of this web site, if not, take a look. Martin. ------------------
Martin W. Sho-Bud, Super- Pro.
Martin W. Sho-Bud, LDG. |
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