The roller nut can cause minimal return problems of which a properly maintained guitar keyed or non keyed wiil NOT experience. I have roller nuts and ZERO roller nut problems.
Think of the over return compensator as the vaccine for the problem. A vaccine doesn't destroy the disease and its cause, it "does"
completely keep me from ever having to experience it.

Paul

.....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 20 May 2006 at 04:57 AM.]

quote:

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Machine head backlash

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Hysteresis is shorter.

Paul...thanks for the input...Lets look at the ball end of the string and see what might improve things.

If the wrap/finger, or finger/string friction is a contributor to the overreturn issue a good first step would be to eliminate the wrap contact with the back of the finger. The second might be to eliminate the use of the ball and wrap, and then one might minimize the amount of contact between the string and the finger.

The ball and wrap replacement device is a screw! Place the screw on the back slope of the finger (not down the back side too far), clamp the string in front of the wrap in the same manner that I do on the other end of the BEAST...then cut off the ball and wrap.

On the BEAST, I use the ball and wrap, but minimize the contact with the finger or any other metal by catching only the ball. If I were to do it again, I would consider replacing the ball holder with a terminator screw.

Manufacturers of PSGs might have taken this direction if the standard available strings had not been so conveniently at hand.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 20 May 2006 at 07:19 AM.]

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Why is there so little attention from the builders to improve what causes the problem: the (roller)nut. Compensaters and keyless heads are only a way the minimize the problems caused by the nut.

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Tradition, Tradition, Tradition.

Remember, a keyless head does not cause string "over return". It simply cannot by design.

quote:

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Bobby Lee
Sysop
From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
posted 11 January 2001 11:50 PM profile send email edit
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The "intonation problems" on a well-adjusted modern pedal steel fall into three categories:

Player error - accidentally slanting the bar, applying uneven pressure, etc.

Hysteresis - when a pull that lowers a string comes back sharp, and a pull that raises the same string comes back flat.

Cabinet drop (or raise) - when strings that aren't being pulled detune when other strings are pulled.
Hysteresis is caused by the string length in the keyhead. It can be corrected by compensator pulls or by keyless head designs, but most players simply live with it. It can be kept at a minimum by keeping the roller nut lubricated.

Cabinet drop has been corrected by counterforce designs on some guitars (most notably the Emmons LeGrande III), but most players simply live with it and tune to accomodate it. Severe cabinet drop could be a sign of an inferior guitar, but most cabinet drop complaints are just picking nits.

At this point in time, no manufacturer is turning out guitars that have serious hysteresis or cabinet drop problems. Brett, I suspect that your guitar is not properly adjusted, or that perhaps you're inadvertantly doing something wrong with your left hand.

Or maybe you're just getting attuned to the microtonal aspects of this amazing instrument. I remember whole years when I thought I didn't sound in tune. My guitar wasn't really the problem, though - I was just learning how to hear well enough to position the bar correctly.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra 8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

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quote:

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Remember, a keyless head does not cause string "over return". It simply cannot by design.

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I know that compensators "fix" the problem, but what I mean is: there should be a way to design a (roller)nut that wouldn't need the use of compensators.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Bill

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 20 May 2006 at 02:30 PM.]

GREAT to see you posting.

One thing I noticed is that a string that has been "at rest" for a time, and plucked very hard will temporarily 'draw up'. I've tried this a number of times, with strings slacked a bit more than normal. What's with this?

At an earlier time before the "Great Tuning Wars" I remember posting my "off the cuff" notes that cold and unused strings would change more before warm, slack somewhat from hand warmth, and then when the body of the guitar warmed and expanded the strings would draw up in addition to this "use tension increase" though the changes would remain lagged after initial "workout". About three distinct layers of change from at least two forces: heat, tensile properties, and then frictional change, I suppose.

Would you suggest "temperature" or "molecular state-of-change compensators" in addition to "JI" and "Over/Under-bounce" compensators?

I'm not being totally facetious here, and you've always been my favorite source of fearless opinion. I've sorely missed your visage and countenance mon frere.

Je-Ne-Se-Qua.. indeed.

One of my favorite "words"..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 May 2006 at 03:29 PM.]

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Friction, and subtle temperature changes, account for the majority of tuning problems.

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Indeed Bill, indeed.

And most of that friction is caused by stress from the roller nut.

BTW, friction will cause subtle temperature changes.

Curt and Marco,
I, Bobby and Ed are talking about a string over returning that is both raised and lowered. Read Ed's last several posts about strings. His Beast over returns 1 cent sharp. Because of a compensator my strings return perfectly so I don't have any problem with the roller nut, or keyhead. Neither does the Zum, Carter, JCH, or any of the multitude of keyed brands that put compensators on by request.

Curt,
I have to point out that In all of your comparisons with your personal experience with keyed vs keyless experiences, you obviously never had compensators on your Carter. If you had, you would drop the keyhead roller issue because the compensators eliminates the problems your ranting about. The strings construction is the culprit of most detuning problems which is probably what causes Ed's beast and Bobby's keyless to measure some over return on a string.

You can debate all you want about what the cause is, but having the same string return perfectly to pitch from both the raised and lowered positions is as good as it gets on any guitar. I and many other players of keyed guitars enjoy not ever having to deal with the problems you suggest a keyhead and roller nut causes.

Ed,
Call me an old soul. I fell in love with two guitars sound early on, The Sho-Bud Permanent and Emmon's PP are the benchmarks for the kind of steel tone I enjoy. My Franklin has the same kind of intial attack and is a fusion between the two guitars. We use a pin. My father tried various ways of mounting strings to check out the variance of tone, if any. We found that the pin gives more of the attack my PP had, because the ball could vibrate on the pin as well as the finger. Every variation changed the sound so I am no longer flexable enough to give up on that element of a guitars tone.

Everytime we vary things away from the original cabinet designs of those earliest guitars the tone changes. I am not saying which sounds best for everyone, except me.
I know that your tonal desires are different because you are not even pursuing the E9th C6th thing.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 20 May 2006 at 04:47 PM.]

Thats cool. My Sierra does not have string "over return" at all. Zero. Nada. None. That is why I prefer keyless.

Korg has a pretty good tuner, so I'll trust it.

quote:

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Hysteresis - when a pull that lowers a string comes back sharp, and a pull that raises the same string comes back flat.

Cabinet drop (or raise) - when strings that aren't being pulled detune when other strings are pulled.
Hysteresis is caused by the string length in the keyhead. It can be corrected by compensator pulls or by keyless head designs, but most players simply live with it. It can be kept at a minimum by keeping the roller nut lubricated.

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That is my position.

quote:

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If you had, you would drop the keyhead roller issue because the compensators eliminates the problems your ranting about.

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No need to become frustrated Paul. I am not out to change your view on keyed guitars. If you are happy using compensators, then good. I however, do not have a need for them.

Also, my opinions are not a "rant", just because you do not agree with them.

Any more than your opinions are considered a rant.

This Forum is big enough for all points of veiws!

I will however, stand up for what I believe.

It is just my nature.

"No need to get frustrated, Paul"

Contrare, I'm actually amused and curious. Why do you continue to ignore everyone who posts their experiences with their keyless guitars over returning?

"Also my opinions are not a rant, just because you disagree with them"

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 20 May 2006 at 05:26 PM.]

Thats why.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 20 May 2006 at 07:23 PM.]

Thanks for the friendly exchange which is conducive to solving the aging problem of detuning. There is a lot to be desired, should anyone become rankled, and resort to derision, rather than allowing records to disprove erroneous assertions. Hundreds of steel guitarists have experienced the detuning problems over the years. Now, the consensus is to purchase a new steel guitar, that is equipped to reduce detuning to virtually nil. Eric, for now, consider bar pressure exerted on the s.g. strings. As you know, any amount of downward pressure will raise the pitch of a given string. This occurs as the bar is placed upon the strings. Each string reacts differently due to a variety of gauges. I would speculate that lack of pressure equivalency, is one of the major problems to overcome.

Bill

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 21 May 2006 at 06:23 AM.]

But to the question:

quote:

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Builders, what say you?

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And it works flawlessly!

OR right in some cases..

To assume that one design is an EXACT Science is a stretch..a huge stretch..

But my opinion is this..

The GREAT Master Builders DID in fact come up with a few solutions to known Science issues, that PLAYERS can use or NOT use to fit there own personal situation...

Because at the end of the day..that is the purpose of the "Compensators"..to give the players the option.

It does NOT mean that Master Builders are providing a "compromised" product..

I have had about all I can take of that line....and make no mistake, that IS what is being implied...

and..

I know I am not alone....

Now, show me that you are taking your root scales off of the 9th or 7th string and you'll really get my attention..

Because that stuff has nothing to do with the keyhead...

I also took out the Sho Bud Pro...you can guess the results.

Paul F...if you read this...when you find that string that does not seem to have any over return, would you try rotating the roller a quarter turn to see if the amount changes? You could do that with any string and see if the amount changes also.

I know my guitars exhibit some return problems, usually a few cents. I tolerate that just like I tolerate that uncontrollable change in string temperature and am rarely told I have intonation problems. If the producer or the band leader or whoever else signs the paycheck is happy and I'm happy, I guess it's just a situation I've learned to live with.

I do compensate my 1st and 7th strings because I've chosen not to live with the sharp thirds and sixths of ET but the rest I can live with. I've concluded I'll never control EVERYTHING and, for me, seeking that perfect tuning to 1 cent or less of ideal is a pipe dream once the hands hit the strings and the A/C shuts off and comes back on.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 21 May 2006 at 10:50 AM.]

It has a lot to do with blind faith, especially when facing a new gig with new material, an unfriendly venue possibly, and we all know the gig. It was harder the first few years.

I don't specifically thank whatever force created and guides my machinations, as my limited understanding of it makes it hard to put into words. Not as much as I should, anyhow.

I do tend very much to choose a guitar/amp combo that minimizes mechanical limitations and inequities, and am happy with what I've come up with. (Fretboard markings as well I only want to be the best and most accurate I can get, and then I let it go.)

For one, I have FINALLY after a 26 year hiatus decided that repursuing 6 string Telecaster will not disrupt my intonation, bar pressure, or the flow of ideas I count on for PSG. I shoulda done it years ago..

Incidentally, my observation that plucking a rested string will cause the molecular structure to "draw up" Is it off base? I never gave it much more thought. Is there a tensile "vindictiveness" in the steel blend used in strings that does this?

Great, again to see your posts and your thoughts mon ami.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 21 May 2006 at 12:42 PM.]

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After reading the facts posted by Paul Franklin and Bruce Bouton recently, I no longer believe that the keyhead is the sole cause of over-return (a.k.a. hysteresis).

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Who said they were facts? They sound like opinions to me.

I never said the keyhead was the SOLE cause of over return. Just the majority of it. I DID say that a keyless head cannot cause string over-return. Simply by design.

Now, Ed Packard has some facts!

There are super players, and super builders.

They are not one in the same.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 21 May 2006 at 03:17 PM.]

You can let him go on them, but they'll circle you before you know it..

I can see why the lowers would tend to overshoot as the string takes over the task of returning to stasis. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion.

Look at it like this....... Letting off a lower is like acceleration, more chance of overshoot.
letting off a raise might be seen as a kind of deceleration.

Even my old pro 2 has almost too little to measure even with my petersen.

Keyheads do have a tonal advantage to me. You will never see a piano without any extra string past the capo. It is essential to the sound of the instrument.
Some people apply a substance to the strings between the capo and the tuner to fine tune or deaden the overtones if they happen to be unacceptable for some reason. On a great piano, these lengths are fine tuned to provide an overtone component to the initial attack of the string. This is by design.
I have also heard many great tuners say that it is much better to approach the note from above than from below. HMMM.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

and be referenced....

for the rest of time.....

sorry dude....

You can thank whats his name for Inventing the Internet...it is now recorded for all eternity..

or at least until the Server goes down...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 May 2006 at 03:42 AM.]

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I have also heard many great tuners say that it is much better to approach the note from above than from below.

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quote:

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HMMM....

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quote:

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His Beast over returns 1 cent sharp

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uh, no, I believe Ed said less than 1 cent. Too little to measure.

quote:

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Curt...for what it is worth, I took out my keyless Sierra crown series, and an older Sierra Session Series and tested them with the Peterson. The results are about the same as on the BEAST on both of them. I believe that I stated that the BEAST had less than one cent...too little to measure...this got rounded up to one cent in the subsequent posts.

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Indeed. Too little to measure.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 22 May 2006 at 06:59 AM.]

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I have seen the term "hysteresis" used on this Forum ever since I became a member. Could someone PLEASE define it for me? And PLEASE, NOT in terms of "Keyed vs. Keyless," JI vs. ET," or any "example" type definitions.

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904