Since music happens over time, hysteresis is an interesting concept to think about.

An Ebow has this--slow attack and a long fade out (hey, and it's magnetic, too!)

What would "sonic hysteresis" be? Maybe a repeating slap back echo. You don't hear it right away..and then it slowly tails off.

What would "musical hysteresis" be? Maybe a steel part that stays on the "old chord" a little longer, then finally resolves a little later to create a musical "tension and release" effect. ..like going from a I to a V chord and but holding the tonic note over the V (becoming a sus4), then lowering a half step to be the 3rd of V...a delayed A pedal release.

Well, yes. Of course. You'll notice that not too many are arguing that point with regard to hysteresis.

But then, this is a problem that over 90% of existing guitars exhibit to some degree. So what are we going to do about it? Throw out all the keyed guitars? Some would say 'yes!,' but a few folks are attached to their Fenders and Emmons and Carters and Fessendens and Sho-Buds...

And getting the guitar "properly setup" will only have limited affect on this kind of design flaw.

Hence, one of the (many) reasons some people use compensators. Yes, it corrects a design flaw. Yes, that flaw is systemic across brands and not just a "few bad apples." Yes, compensators work. No, they're not just marketing. Yes, there is no Santa Claus. Yes, without a compensator you can probably register hysteresis of your E-string on a tuner. Yes, you should check your guitar, just for fun. Yes, you can ignore the issue if your ears can't detect it. Yes, you can (and should... at all times) fudge the bar to play in tune, regardless of your tuning method or design flaws inherent in your guitar.

Yes, I'm sure I've left something out and will think of it later

[This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 19 May 2006 at 10:39 AM.]

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Some things simply aren't possible!

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But hysteresis originating from the key head, is totally preventable. As witnessed by Sierra and GFI keyless guitars.

A keyed guitar will have hysteresis by design.

Even though the thread originator asked to leave that equation/OPINION out..

and of course a string cannot cause such a severe issue, only the multiple thousand dollar guitar..

definition:
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Hysteresis phenomena occur in magnetic and ferromagnetic materials, as well as in the elastic and electromagnetic behavior of materials, in which a lag occurs between the application and the removal of a force or field and its subsequent effect. Electric hysteresis occurs when applying a varying electric field, and elastic hysteresis occurs in response to a varying force. The term "hysteresis" is sometimes used in other fields, such as economics or biology. In such cases it describes a memory or lagging effect in which the order of previous events can influence the order of subsequent events.

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It says nothing about an engineered device being poorly designed...

I hope that nobody is suggesting that many Master Builders don't know what they are doing...as is assumed by mentioning the numerous brands...

Because that is what I take away from all of this...

lets just completely overlook that a well designed Steel, with even the most precision components, is dependent on a 50 cent string, and that each 50 cent string forever is perfectly matched to the last 50 cent string that perhaps..uhh..broke..

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 19 May 2006 at 11:56 AM.]

Brint: Your hysteresis is most likely happening at the changer. Not the keyless. As you know, your GFI has no roller nut. There is virtually NO string behind it. Come on, how can it be the head?
I'd look really close into the changer, because it is not the keyless design. If you don't see a problem, have the guys at GFI look at it. I have had two keyless GFI's. NO hysteresis on either. In fact, until just now, never heard of a GFI to have keyless hysteresis.

You may have other issues going on.

I have noticed that my Mullen does not have this problem with the E strings. They always snap back to E (according to my tuners) after raising or lowering them. I don't know if this applies to all Mullen guitars. Perhaps I just got lucky.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Mullen U-12, Excel 8-string Frypan, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King

In the same thread Ed verifies that although the beast has some return hysteresis he doesn't need compensators because of his open tuning.

When I remove all of the posts speculating a cause trying to fix blame on a certain component of a guitar over another part of its mechanics on this return hysteresis subject, of which for the past 40 years has been through intensive studies ending in the same unresolved conclusion by virtually every great builder in the industry, We end up with a poll of who has it vs who has never noticed it.

These are the poll results.

Counting Tucker, Fred Layman, Bobby Lee, Ed and Curt so far there are five keyless owners of various brands on record confirming their personal keyless guitars do experience the scenario of return hysteresis, either alot or a little. And I and numerous others can varify the keyed side experiences the same return hysteresis, either alot or a little within all brands.

Only Eric & Jim stands alone believing return Hysteresis is smoke and mirrors and probably doesn't exist. I believe Jim plays an 8 string Fender. Not sure what Eric plays.

The thread also mentions that a "Tunable Return Compensator" completely eliminates the return hysteresis and so far with hundreds of posts on the subject nobody has said they don't work and I will verify they have worked perfectly on my Emmons, MSA, Sho Bud, and Franklin guitars.

Its interesting that Although some do advocate no need for them, No one has said they tried them and they don't completely work to resolve the problem.

Those that advocate no need probably don't hear it and are completely comfortable slanting the bar a little to compensate for this type of hysteresis.

There are various tuning issues that can be resolved with smooth rotating rollernuts and a virtually non-flexing changer. But return hysteresis is not one of them.

Blaming return hysteresis on a faulty mechanical design is like using a soft foam hammer to drive a nail into a piece of Oak.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 19 May 2006 at 02:48 PM.]

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Hysteresis in magnetics and materials is used to describe something that does not return all the way after being displaced.

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So far Curt admitted in the keyhead vs keyless thread to having "ALMOST" no return hysteresis. "Almost" does not equal "Zero".

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None measureable.

My stance has been:
(1)My Sierra or GFI has no RETURN hysteresis due the the keyless mechanism.

(2) A keyed guitar will almost ALWAYS have hysteresis originating from the keyhead. Not counting any changer problems that may be.

Simple.

I can't be blamed for poor keyhead design, I can only recognize and avoid it.

People will play the guitar of their choice. I don't care if I ever sway anyone to keyless.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink"

Yes, hysteresis is one problem I don't have.

My Sierra is a little heavier than some, but that just makes it more stable.

For clarification, I am talking about tuning a single strings note open, then tuning all of that strings raises, release the raises and the guitar pullers always return perfectly back to the stop and to pitch, then tune all of the lowers on that same string and release them and they always sound sharp even though the puller has been returned perfectly back to the same physical stop.

This is the problem I have been refering to as "return hysteresis".

Paul

RE "zero"...there is no known way to measure zero = none. One might say "no discernible effect", or something like that.

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Blaming return hysteresis on a faulty mechanical design is like using a soft foam hammer to drive a nail into a piece of Oak.

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Paul,

I take it from that line, that you do not think there is any stretching of string in the keyhead.

Is that a correct assumption?

Does a long string(as in a keyed guitar) stretch more than a short string(as in a keyless) one?

If so, then there must be string travel over the roller nut. No?

Do you think the roller nut can be a cause of non-returning strings?

The roller nut on most keyed guitars is the culprit for the majority of return hysteresis. The other causes are at the changer end.

For me the keyhead is a plus, and yes, every part connected to the string on the guitar can cause some tuning problems which is why keykess owners are not exempt.

The keyheads of all the guitars I love to play except one, all have one thing in common. Because of the strings vibration between the roller nut and the tuning gear, we've discovered through experiments that these vibrations add to producing a bell like tone upon the initial striking of the string. When the lock down nuts between the roller nut and the key are added to it, which has been tried, it helped eliminate some, but not all of the return hysteresis, or over-return problems, But it also caused the attack of the note to soften and it lost that bell thing. The compensator completely heals the problem and I get to keep the bell attack of a great sounding keyhead. There are also many brands with great sounding keyheads these days.

To me, and I suppose I feel the same as many do in the community, the sound of an instrument is what draws me in. Than if it doesn't have enough sustain I'm not interested in pursuing ownership of that instrument. My third criteria is actually the most important once I like what I hear. It has to be void of mechanical tuning problems caused by a bad key, or poor roller nut system, or flexing changer, and beyond that I know that compensators can resolve any remaining friction or string problems.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 19 May 2006 at 05:15 PM.]

The string is bent around the changer finger. It is anchored in a couple of common ways by using the ball...either on a pin, or in a slot.

Every string has a wrap...some more than others. That wrap is in intimate contact with the finger...some more than others.

When the string is slacked,could it be that the wrap tension against the back of the finger is reduced, the wrap moves up the finger a bit (ratchets), and when the string is allowed to return to the system mechanical zero, the string returns tighter than it started out....and the other way around.

You will notice that on the BEAST, the wrap does not touch the finger or other parts.

With all the various brands I've owned, changing strings on the same guitar can often alter the amount of over return. Sometimes a set of strings has no over return. I think the strings certainly are a problem because all of the mechanics and keyhead, rollers etc. are functioning at the same level of accuracy and the strings are the only change to the guitar.

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Let's all call it "over-return" from now on. Whad'ya think?

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OR

My comment on hysteresis being not quite the right term was not aimed at you. I have used it up till now as it was "common usage" on the Forum.

Do you find any difference in the Over return between gauges? Between Plain and wound?

Consider that the vast majority of rollers at the changer, whether they use a post for the ball end or a claw, work like a pulley; the string kind of winds onto the roller when it raises and winds off when it lowers (not very far of course).

Is there any possibility that, depending on the friction coefficients of the string and the roller materials, this sort of pulley winding might be aggrivating hysteresis? Kind of making the proportions of string tension, pitch, movement and other things unstable?

If (for the sake of argument) that was causing it to a degree, I guess a solution would be to have a roller bridge just like a roller nut, and have the string balls attach to pullers behind that don't do any sort of string hugging. That would require the string to bend a little more often that way, and might possibly make string life shorter for that reason, but the advatage (like I say, IF there's one) would be that the string would basically be free from friction on both sides of the termination, like braking friction that might be altering consistent behavior as it passes on and off of it. I'm just brainstorming here... If your rollers were well made, lubed, didn't pinch the string and only had a very short little overhang between it and the ball and puller, wouldn't they perform better (IF and only IF that's a factor)?

I had a Domland Stereo that was like this, but I must emphasize that I had a Domland so I can't test it now.
Someone speak up if they want me to post a picture of what I'm talking about.

Another way to exlpain it: take a string on your guitar that has a couple of wraps on the post, make sure it's in tune; then, turn it 3 turns one way, and then 3 turns the other and return it to the exact original position. I don't need to tell you it wouldn't be quite in tune after that even if the wormgear were perfectly tight... Different set of dimensions, same idea.

[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 30 May 2006 at 12:31 PM.]

As far as I know, all of the string manufacturers are still using the Vinci winding machines that have been around for half a century or more.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

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Why is there so little attention from the builders to improve what causes the problem: the (roller)nut. Compensaters and keyless heads are only a way the minimize the problems caused by the nut.

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Sweet Mother of God!

Indeed Marco, indeed!

My point exactly. Why not fix the source of the problem.

Reminds me of the difference between an MD, and a DO.

An MD will prescibe medications to treat the symptoms, but a DO will treat the underlying cause, so that there will be no symptoms.

Great question, Marco.

Builders, what say you?