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Author
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Topic: Sho-Bud pros- cons???
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Alex Piazza
Member From: Arkansas, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 01:37 PM
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Ive finally decided to move up from my carter starter to a pro model guitar. I saw a guy playing a sho-bud on the opry a few nights ago. The tone was out of this world, not to mention it was one of the best looking guitars ive ever seen. Its my understanding that you cant get one new anymore. I worry about buying a guitar thats several years old. The only reason is because I have absolutley no idea how to work on a steel. it seems like theres so much going on under there that it scares me. Im sure they were built like tanks, right? What should one expect from buying an old Sho-bud as oppossed to a new pro-model guitar? |
Peter
Member From: Cape Town, South Africa
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posted 23 May 2006 02:18 PM
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I got an old Sho-Bud and it was in very good condition. Like you said: The tone is out of this world.The only thing I did not like was the fact that the parts underneath were worn out a little bit, causing the pedals and rods to be very noisy. So Ricky Davis suggested to use plumbers tape on the bell-crank swivels, which helped a lot. In addition I used foam rubber to prevent noise from the rods and I used plastic caps (from the end of a Bic pen) on the pedal stops. Now the guitar is a lot quiter. The action of the guitar is very easy. It plays like butter. But there is another advantage of the Sho-Bud, which I never realised before I owned one.
The guitar is quite big. And because of its generous size, it seems much easier to play. You feel not cramped like you do on a more compact guitar like the P/P. I am not tall, but I can reach everything with ease.
My legs are more streched out, rather than folded up underneath (Like Fender and Emmons). And the knee lever placement is just right. This is my favorite guitar. ------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
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Larry Robbins
Member From: Fort Edward, New York, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 02:24 PM
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Alex,
No matter what you end up with sooner or later you are gonna have to learn a little about how it works.If for nothing else but simple maintanence. That being said,They sure are a pretty looking, fine sounding steel.As far as working on them...Sho~Buds were the first "Pro" model steel I owned, and believe me , if I can learn to work on one a little , so can you.All that aside, there are a lot of more modern steels that are well liked by just about everyone but, to me , there is nothing like the tone or looks or "vibe" of a Sho~Bud....Just ask Ricky Davis, LLoyd Green,Bobbe, Duane,ect...
Think it all over well my friend. I LOVE EM! Good luck in whatever you decide.------------------
72 Professional 8&5,73 PRO II 8&4, 79/80 PRO III 8&4,Fender Steelking, Hilton pedal, USA Tele, Fender Twin,Peterson tuner,Tut Taylor Reso's and Twang to the Bone!! |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 23 May 2006 02:25 PM
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be sure to keep in mind, that as great as the old BUDS are, they are exactly that..
OLDERIF you have seen a player on TV sittin' behind an old Sho-Bud just be aware that it may have been completely restored, or perhaps partially restored. Great Steels, buy smart... Understand what you are buying... t |
Larry Robbins
Member From: Fort Edward, New York, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 02:57 PM
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 Tony gives very good advise, Alex.
Many steels, Sho~Bud and other used are just that, old! and will more than likely need some work. Newer steel have the advantage in that case. If you buy a newer steel you will in all probability spend as much or more as if you buy an older model and do some upgrading/ re-working. Both have there Pros and Cons...see, isn't steel playing easy  Good luck and DO let us know how you make out! ps: aint they purrty? ------------------
72 Professional 8&5,73 PRO II 8&4, 79/80 PRO III 8&4,Fender Steelking, Hilton pedal, USA Tele, Fender Twin,Peterson tuner,Tut Taylor Reso's and Twang to the Bone!! |
Alex Piazza
Member From: Arkansas, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 02:58 PM
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Tony, I wonder what kind of money you would have to spend in order to get an old Bud restored? |
Alex Piazza
Member From: Arkansas, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 03:01 PM
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Larry, Those are beautifull!! I dont geuss those are for sale |
Larry Robbins
Member From: Fort Edward, New York, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 03:58 PM
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Restored? depends on what it needs. If you buy one from our friend Boobe Seymour at
: www.steelguitar.net you dont have to worry about fixen em up.------------------
72 Professional 8&5,73 PRO II 8&4, 79/80 PRO III 8&4,Fender Steelking, Hilton pedal, USA Tele, Fender Twin,Peterson tuner,Tut Taylor Reso's and Twang to the Bone!! |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 23 May 2006 04:08 PM
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Alex if your are looking to upgrade from a starter model I would try to stay away from sho-bud I have one one and yes it is built like a tank but has machanical problems like that of a '78 ford pinto! I love my sho-bud dearly but after a few songs I have to tune it up and that gets old, if you are on a fixed budget atleast find a store where you can try some PSG out, you may find out you like a different steel better, maybe plan your vacation around it? I bought a carter d10 and love it and since then I forgot my 'bud, Keep in mind yes sho-buds have good tone but tone is in the hands, I love how easy the pedals and knee levers are to throw on my carter. also if you have limited PSG repairing knowledge try to find someone local to help you out. good luck! |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 23 May 2006 04:09 PM
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looks like a fine example of a labor of love larry |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 23 May 2006 04:20 PM
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If you restore an old Sho~Bud with newer and sometimes different parts, the sound will be different as well, won't it? |
Gabriel Stutz
Member From: Chicago, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 04:22 PM
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I upgraded from my student model to a ShoBud, and I found it to be a great guitar, it sounds and plays great, and is pretty stable tuning-wise. Yes, I've had to work on it a couple times, but nothing major. Besides, if nothing goes wrong, you'll never learn how to fix it. I just think the older steels "feel" good. I like the idea of mechanical perfection, but I'd say the older steels I've heard have been preferable to my ears over some of the new ones I've heard, (but, bare in mind, you don't get to hear live pedal steel as often as I'd like here in Chicago) and the tone wins over mechanics for me (within reason). There really isn't anything better than just playing guitars until one strikes you. There are obviously some geographical constraints on that luxury, though.[This message was edited by Gabriel Stutz on 23 May 2006 at 04:25 PM.] |
Larry Robbins
Member From: Fort Edward, New York, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 04:48 PM
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Of course I am talking replacing Sho~Bud parts, with Sho~Bud parts. Acorrding to our good friend Professer Seymour, if you replace Sho~Bud parts with Sho~Bud parts the value is retained. Others feel that you can upgrade with other than original parts and be further ahead..see, steel guitar is sooo cut and dry out of the three steels in the pics that I posted,I have less than 2,300 invested in any one steel.
If you buy ANY steel right you can affored to fix it up a little and still not have to take a second job to payfor it.------------------
72 Professional 8&5,73 PRO II 8&4, 79/80 PRO III 8&4,Fender Steelking, Hilton pedal, USA Tele, Fender Twin,Peterson tuner,Tut Taylor Reso's and Twang to the Bone!! |
James Morehead
Member From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 04:49 PM
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Just remember, Shobuds were not created equal, certain early years were far superior to some of the later models, IMO. Just like stated above, some were like Ford Pintos, some were like Ford Mustangs! Around late '70's--early '80's, some Shobuds were made with poor quality metal, and that metal would tend to fail during a gig, so, some of the pro players tended to go back to the earlier buds, as they were reliable and have "tone to the bone". So, mechanical failure, as well as loss of tone is what makes the "older buds" worth seeking out, if you want to own a Shobud. You would do well to do your homework, first, before you buy a bud, or any used steel, for that matter. Forum moderator Ricky Davis is an excellant person to email for starters. My favorite buds are the "The Professional" and the Pro II, also the Pro I if you want a single neck. The early round front LDG model is a very sweet guitar--single neck on a double body with the armrest pad. I love my '70 "The Professional" shobud, it has been completely refurbished by John Coop, and plays everybit as reliable as any brand new steel, yet it has that old Shobud tone! |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 23 May 2006 06:10 PM
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now this is funny...I had a to drive a '78 ford pinto to high school (yikes!) while my dad had a gorgeous '68 mustang in the garage off limits ! take care. |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 23 May 2006 06:17 PM
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Kaboom!!! |
Stephen Winters
Member From: Holcomb, Mississippi, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 06:59 PM
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When I graduated from my Carter Starter to a pro model guitar, I purchased a Sho-Bud Pro1 from Mr. Bobbe Seymour. It is an excellent guitar, but he made sure everything was in good shape on it. My Pro1 has awesome tone and is easy to play. If you get an old Sho-Bud, learn how to oil and maintain it. I would advise purchasing it through someone like Mr. Seymour who will make sure it is in good mechanical condition. I wanted a Sho-Bud all my life, and finally got one. I am very happy with it. |
Damir Besic
Member From: La Vergne,TN
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posted 23 May 2006 07:32 PM
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quote:
The tone was out of this world, not to mention it was one of the best looking guitars I`ve ever seen
yeap,that`s Sho~Bud Db ------------------
"Promat"
~when tone matters~ www.promatsteelguitars.com
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Tom Quinn
Member From: Sacramento
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posted 23 May 2006 07:32 PM
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I think a Sho-Bud D-10 Professional is an ountstanding guitar to step up to. Don't worry about the mechanics -- the old barrel changer was and still is rock solid and extremely easy to change copedants on.You can eliminate about 90% of the jingle noises with a careful application of -- yes, that's right -- duct tape to the baskets. Wish I still had my old one... |
James Morehead
Member From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
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posted 23 May 2006 08:32 PM
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I like to use a rubber band or two if I find a little slack. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 23 May 2006 10:51 PM
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My Sho-Bud Pro-II is 25 years oldIt has 4-5 different eras of parts underneith I have no other steel mechanic within 1000 MILES of here, so I do it. It still sounds and looks awesome. I have added levers and many different pulls myself.
It was Emmons 8+6, now it's 8+9
and many influences in it's copedent. If you are mechanically inept, then go for a pre-restored one.
Or a more modern steel. But if you can fix a car you can learn to work on a Bud, and there are many people here
with great advice and available parts. But I am sure not too far from you will be a Bud mechanic
who can help you find, and then maintain one for you |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 24 May 2006 01:44 AM
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Larry, Awesome..any stories /history regarding the trio ?
I would give anything, well a lot , to have my Black D-10 Pro III back...
I am still considering a Pro II or III in the coming year... ya just can't turn away from these Instruments.. Alex, hard to say about $$$ Investment to bring a Guitar to stage reliability..I think that question can only be answered when you have a Guitar in front of you, you know what it needs, what it has, and is in the hands of a very capable person to do the work... Ricky Davis, Bobbe Seymour, Duane Marrs , Mike Cass, Bobby Bowman etc....[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 May 2006 at 01:52 AM.] |
Billy Carr
Member From: Seminary, Mississippi USA
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posted 24 May 2006 02:37 AM
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The old Bud's are ok for historial purposes and collectors but when your ready to use a guitar to make serious money then I would seriously look at what brands the pros are playing. Not saying that all Sho-Bud's will need steady maintenance and service but to me, it's sort like buying a vehicle with a 100,000 miles already on it. You get what you pay for. Then again, a restored Bud may be just as good as a new one. They're some beautiful Bud's out there! |
Larry Robbins
Member From: Fort Edward, New York, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 02:37 AM
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Well Tony,
The Brown PROII I bought sight unseen a few years ago from a fella who had just taken over a music store up in Maine. It had been in the store taken in on trade for a few years. He didnt want very much money, and I was GLAD to pay it! [you would not believe it if I told you how much] all it needed was a good cleaning, a little tweaking here and there and I had the coil taps rewound to spec. Jaw droping tone!
The Black Professional was once owned by Tommy White so you know its a keeper! Great sustain! The Pro III I got from our good friend Bobbe Seymour and is a nice player.
Has the tripple raise/double lower changer and No pot metal parts. Its the one I usually take to gig or jam with. Love em all!....The wife thinks I have enough [This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 24 May 2006 at 02:41 AM.] |
Randy Reeves
Member From: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 05:51 AM
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my old 'Bud' has been around. a 74 and all original. as you have heard the tone is classic.dont be intimdated in owning an old instrument.
there are many sources for repairs and replacement parts.
IMO, these steels were well made and they do last.
so buy the vibe cause these old instruments, like old players sitting behind them, have alot to say. and they say it well.
 [This message was edited by Randy Reeves on 24 May 2006 at 05:52 AM.] |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 24 May 2006 08:46 AM
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Alex, i stepped up from a SB Maverick to a 1970 SB the Professional D10.
i had it for 5 years
i loved it even though it was noisy & was subject to temperature changes
it had a wonderfull sound & tone
well i did sell it cause i wanted a Zumsteel
it's gone now but alive & well in Swedenmaybe one day when i have the $$$, i'll get a Sho~Bud that got renovated by Duane Marrs ! Alex, you can count on the Fo'bros here to steer ya' towards some of the best SB models that were the Professional (S10 or D10)
LDG (SD 10)
Pro I (S10)
Pro II (D10)
Pro III (D10) |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 24 May 2006 08:49 AM
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If you go for another modern mechanism steel, but love the Bud too,
you can get a Fulawka or a Fessendon,
they may be closest to an old Bud,(IMHO)
in general feel and sound,
and they both look great too. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 09:00 AM
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Okay, I appreciate all the nostalgia, I have an old Sho-Bud myself. But as a beginner I think Alex deserves the hard truth, and A.J. is the only one dishing it out. Sho-Buds are antiques. There were a lot of different models over the decades, some better, some worse. Without a lot of research, a beginner will not know which is which. They are all in some sense classics (which is why we love them), but you could be getting anything from a Model T to a '57 Chevy to a '70s muscle car. It could be anything from a rusted out junker to a completely rebuilt hot rod with modern non-stock parts. You might luck into one of the good years, well maintained in good working order. If not, it will need extensive restoration and constant and knowledgeable maintenance. In short, your hobby will not only be learning to play pedal steel, but also upgrading and maintaining the old Sho-Bud. Some people enjoy that sort of challenge, some would rather concentrate on learning to play.And lets be honest. Sho-Buds have always been known for their looks. They have never been known for state-of-the-art mechanics, stability, and reliability. Virtually all modern brands are better mechanically and are less limited in copedant possibilities. And although there is a lot of nostalgic talk about Sho-Bud tone, I cannot discern what that tone is supposed to be. An Emmons p/p is the benchmark for bright tone, sustain and string separation. ZBs have a zingy tone. Some MSAs have a dark tone. Sho-Buds have many tones over the decades, some better, some worse, but most fairly typical. Their tone is not better, and is less consistent than most modern pedal steels. Sure Ricky Davis and a few other experts can pick the right model and refurbish it to pro performance and reliability with great tone. So if a beginner wants to hire one of those guys, that's fine. Someday I would like to get one of them to refurbish my Sho-Bud. But if you want an instrument out of the box with good performance, reliability and modern flexibility in copedant, buy a new one, or a used one made in the last 20 years. I know, I know, everybody's old Sho-Bud is the greatest guitar on earth - I love mine too. But it's a project guitar I got for nostalgia reasons. I practice and gig on a modern instrument, the same as most steelers these days. I'm just trying be honest with a beginner. ------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 24 May 2006 09:32 AM
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I gotta go along with David on this one. I personally don't find old Buds to be worth the trouble. ------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website  |
Alex Piazza
Member From: Arkansas, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 09:37 AM
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Thanks Dave, Thats some practical advice for me. Maybee one of these days my band will make a million dollars and I can buy several sho-buds!!If I was to buy one, what are some of the better years. Alex |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 10:48 AM
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Well, this is part of the problem. It's not a matter of the year. Various models overlapped in the years they were made. You have to know the body types, the model designations, and the type of parts used. there are many threads on the Forum that you can research to read the comments. As I recall, Ricky Davis' favorite tone was the big body Pro II with the "two hole pullers." These were available in the early to mid '70s. But with a two-raise, single-lower limit, these are suitable only for the most basic traditional setup (which is fine for a beginner, and which even some highly regarded pros never went beyond). That doesn't mean the tone of previous models was bad, just not the best. The mechanics of prior models were clunky and unstable, and not up to modern standards (but of course plenty of people played great music on them and still do). The Baldwin crossover model was especially unsuccessful mechanically, and they are probably the biggest and heaviest pedal steel ever made. Bobbe Seymour has said that the Pro III (late '70s into '80s) was the first Sho-Bud with good modern type all-pull mechanics, yet they maintained some of the classic Sho-Bud looks and tone. However, many of these had inferior metal in the parts, which eventually need to be replaced to avoid excessive wear and breakage. The Superpro (late '70s-'80s) was a compact, innovative modern instrument, and very different from the old classic Sho-Buds. So you can see that there is no simple answer. Sho-Bud quality and design was inconsistent over the decades. Even the same designated models in the same years could have different parts. Picking a good one without expert help is difficult. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 24 May 2006 at 10:55 AM.] |
Lem Smith
Member From: Fulton, MS. U.S.A.
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posted 24 May 2006 11:00 AM
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Alex,Another thought if you are considering a newer model steel. The Show-Pro is a new guitar, and appears to be quite similar to a Sho~Bud, and you can find some info on them at Duane Marr's website. Also, the new Jackson steel guitar is made by the folks who built Sho~Bud's. David Jackson, the son of Sho~Bud originator Shot Jackson, is the one building these. I would think that either one of these would get you quite close to what you're looking for, yet in a new guitar. I play an early/mid seventies Sho~Bud Pro II, and it's still in top shape, in both looks and mechanically. My understanding is that the late 60's to mid 70's guitars were the ones you want, for tone and mechanics. The later models are the ones that used the pot metal parts. |
James Morehead
Member From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 12:50 PM
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Bottom line: Shobuds were not created equal. If you decide to own a shobud, you will do your self much good to consult with some of the above mentioned experts. There ARE alot of us bud owners who are thrilled with our guitars and wouldn't trade no matter what, and we play the fire out of them, but there are also some who have had a poor experience, too. Educate yourself. |
Niclas Nilsson
Member From: Sweden
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posted 24 May 2006 12:58 PM
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I'm the proud owner of CrowBear's old Sho~Bud Professional, and I love it. I'd say it's my most prized possession. It sounds great, and it looks stunning. However, it's also extremely heavy, and needs quite a bit of TLC from time to time. Now, I'm by no means a skilled guitar mechanic (or player, for that matter--I suck, basically, but I love the instrument), but I do enjoy tinkering with it. This guitar has the old "rack and barrell" design, which is quite noisy and may not be the world's most sophisticated. But it's also very easy to understand, and making copedant changes is a piece of cake. I'm not a gigging musician, so reliability and weight etc. are not as important to me as it is to other members of this forum, but if I was, I'd probably get a modern guitar for gigging (a Zum, just like CrowBear!  ).This was my first pedal steel guitar. I'm still not sure it was the wisest way to go for a beginner. Mr. Doggett speaks the truth, this is an antique, and you have to be prepared to look under the hood, and figure things out. But still, I definitely don't regret getting this guitar. It puts a grin on my face just looking at it. I guess my advice would be, if you just wanna play the thing and progress musically first and foremost, buy something newer. But if you like the whole pedal steel thing (how does the instrument work, what happens if I change this around? etc.), then an old Sho~Bud might be just right for you. Good luck,
Niclas |
Mark Fasbender
Member From: Salt Lake City,Utah
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posted 24 May 2006 01:42 PM
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I have buddies with all kinds of steels and most of them seem to think my 73 pro 2 is more stable and feels better than what they own. All the rack and barrell models can be very stable with a minimum of effort as long as they are in good shape. Not the best choice to hang a zillion levers on though. All t he Professionals can be made stable and left stock. All the barrell behind 2 hole pullers systems are easy to get stable as well. These types would be my first choice. Highly reccomended. It aint rocket science. Good luck Alex.------------------
Got Twang ? Mark |
mike nolan
Member From: Long Island City, NY USA
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posted 24 May 2006 06:23 PM
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I have 2 big body round front Buds... both have barrels behind 2 hole pullers. I really like that system....I also own 2 PP Emmons guitars. My only modern guitar is a Williams. The Sho~Buds play and sound great... they can handle fairly complex copedents. Ricky recently did a S-10 'Bud with 6 knees.....
The PPs and the Buds are not a whole lot more difficult to work on than the modern guitars... once you learn what is going on.
There is a resale issue as well..... you will lose some money on a new guitar. The right vintage axe will hold it's value. |
Ernest Cawby
Member From: Lake City, Florida, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 06:38 PM
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Herwgo,I bought a new 1972 D10 Professional, used it for 30 years and never had to have it repaired, never replaced anything on this guitar. Never gave me any trouble. Last year I decided to upgrade to modern parts. Put the new type Coop parts on it. I am now looking for an old D10 professional to have Leon put the Aluminum parts that he makes on it. He did one and every one that has played it states it plays as good as any new guitar on the market and has killer tone.
Now it plays like all the other new guitars, I am happy with it, ernie |
Jon Hyde
Member From: Seattle, Washington, USA
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posted 24 May 2006 08:18 PM
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I have a Professional and later model LDG with super pro mechanics. I like them both and I think they both look and sound great. My Professional is the first “pro” steel that I got after I sold my Maverick. As I’ve learned how to play it, I’ve also learned how to work on it. There is a ton of great info right here on the forum and great resources such as Marrs Music for parts and advice. Ricky Davis has been super helpful to me with advice and I recently endeavored to dismantle and clean every part of this old guitar. It is playing easier and more in tune than ever – sure it needs more tweaking than a new Zum! I also recently upgraded the fingers and knee lever brackets in my LDG (from Marrs again) and I’m in the process of putting that one back together now. I love their beautiful lacquer finishes and I love the way they sound – this more recent LDG sounds great – I disagree with James’ assertion that one is better than the other. I can A/B them all day and they both sound cool! They are different. No matter what, you’re going to want to have an understanding of the mechanics of the thing. Here’s a qualifier: I’ve owned 3 pedal steels and they are all Sho Buds! I don’t even know what’s going on with other brands... So I have an opinion sure, but it’s lopsided. It doesn’t sound like you’re looking for the best steel ever built. It sounds like maybe you’re trying to get your 1st “pro” level guitar. An old Bud in decent shape is a cool guitar with a great vibe. Not a bad place to start!
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James Morehead
Member From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
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posted 25 May 2006 05:25 AM
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Well Jon, Seems we both agree we both love those old Professionals! I had a chance to play a Super Pro for awhile. It sounded great, but I was glad to be back on my Professional. It has "that tone" for me. |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 25 May 2006 10:25 AM
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Do ya gotta have a Sho-Bud to make them long sustaining unique tones that Jimmy Day and Lloyd Green have created? Or does it just help... | |
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