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This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel
Author Topic:   Dreams can become reality
BobbeSeymour
Member

Posts: 5664
From: Hendersonville TN USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 29 August 2001 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbeSeymour     
If the string length is diffrent on each string on the same neck, the ferther up the neck you play,the worse the tuning problem will be,no matter how picky the player is.Or who he is,the problem isn't with the player,it's with the guitar. The player can be blamed only for buying and playing a poorly designed instrument. I know of no guitar being built this way in this day and time. Thank goodness.
Bobbe


Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 30 August 2001 06:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Donny Hinson,

Thank you for helping to reinforce the
belief that "The pen is mightier than
sword." Daniel Webster would have
lingered for a moment, after a brief
stop at a Hill Top Tavern, (3 Mile Hill)
route 23, in Great Barrington, Ma.,
circa 1810, to fetch a demi-john. If
your delicate phraseologies depict the
axle to string relationship, in terms
of modifications, and breakages, Daniel
would be helpful in ferreting out your
viewpoint, and possibly insert a quote
that is relevant to The Williams S. G.
modified changer. Thank you for the interesting input! Bill H.


Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 30 August 2001 06:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Forum Members,

I would like to quote words from a song.

Wind me up, turn me on, and let me cry
for you......

I might not cry for you, but I wish to
say that you're responses motivate me
as I call upon the generous postings,
to emphasize again, that dreams can
indeed become reality, especially when
I weigh the rewards of the input that
has appeared on this post. Bill H.


Pat Burns
Member

Posts: 2896
From: Branchville, N.J. USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 30 August 2001 07:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Burns     
...well, Bobbe, I'm just gonna hafta invent a harp that does use a bar...no problem if the strings are different lengths, I'll use bar slants!...we'll call it the "Bar Harp"....We'll manufacture them in Bar Harpor, Maine...the bar harp will look like a loom, just don't keep you fingers on the strings when the bar comes down...you can make an oriental rug on it while you play...see, you don't need to be an engineer, how hard can it be?...what does driving a train have to do with it, anyway?..I'm ready to build airplanes...Stonecraft - Built Solid, Flies Like A Rock....

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 30 August 2001 at 07:44 AM.]



Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 30 August 2001 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Jon Light,

After pondering your reel of .011 dispensable wire, my thoughts returned
to what the forum members have been writing about changing the strings
before they break. There must be some
mental telepathy going on here, because
I explained in detail, to the letter,
during May and June, the same reel idea
to one or two of my closest friends. I
felt so much better after reading the
post from June, 2000, showing clearly
that you had in fact envisaged the idea.

The Lucky 7 is offering more promise
with each day of use. At this time I am
thinking in terms of trying to put in
place an "EXTRA .011 STRING" to work in proximity to the 3rd .011 string.
A special design incorporated into the
roller bridge at the 3rd string roller,
may facilitate the use of two strings,
both tuned to standard G #. The extra
string could be brought to a minimal
separation at the changer end. If one
gives out during a set, trust the other
to last the set. The question at this
time is, would the idea impede speed
picking, or present other disadvantages.
This little squeak in the forest could
open the floodgates for those who are
seeking improved intonation. Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 30 August 2001 at 02:24 PM.]



Bobby Lee
Sysop

Posts: 14849
From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
Registered:

posted 30 August 2001 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bobby Lee     
Sorta like a spare tire...


Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 30 August 2001 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Bobby Lee,

You hit the nail squarely on the head!!
Thanks Bobby..... Bill H.


Ed Miller Jr
Member

Posts: 102
From: Coldwater,Mi USA
Registered: FEB 2001

posted 30 August 2001 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ed Miller Jr     
Okay....Moving right a long whose going to win the series?. Here's an Idea how about changer fingers made out of the material graph tech makes there string saver saddles out of? Or; God Forbid, ten idividual Floyd Rose tremelos so you have to scrounge up a 3mm wrench in the middle of the lead players ride? I'm beginning to think we've pondered ever possible combination except making the other strings change pitch in relation to each other to give the aural illusion that the G# raised a half step...Why not every other idea has been batted around here. Maybe it's time to give creedence to the ludicrious. How about strings designed by fruit of the loom, Maybe the answer lies in their "super band waistband" material.

ED

BobbeSeymour
Member

Posts: 5664
From: Hendersonville TN USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 30 August 2001 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbeSeymour     
Waist band? The only kind of band that doesn't have trouble with strings.
Kermitt---(black-sheep)


Pat Burns
Member

Posts: 2896
From: Branchville, N.J. USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 30 August 2001 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Burns     
..no Ed, we've only scratched the surface of possibilities at 128 responses on this post..

..the only reason that the strings have to bend 90 degrees at all on the pedal steel is so the player can sit up and play the pedals in comfort and ease...might as well put him in a Laz-E-Boy Chair while he's playing...but for that he sacrifices an occasional broken string, which apparently is worse than having the crowd toss a midget onto the bandstand and land on top of your axe...you still could build a guitar with no 90 degree angles on the strings, allowing them to pull in a straight line, simply by putting pedals on either end of the guitar at the same height above the floor as the strings, mounted vertically instead of horizontally...instead of a pac-a-seat or stool, the player would sit in a gynecologist's chair so he could get his feet up to work the pedals, which would be where the stirrups used to be...he would give up a little comfort but he would never break a string...

...why, we haven't even beaten this topic into submission, let alone beat it death...

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 30 August 2001 at 08:45 PM.]



Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 31 August 2001 04:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Pat Burns,

Your contributions, combined with the
generous amount of observations that
you have made, and shared, with forum
members, have not gone unnoticed. I
would point out that I agree with
you on the matter that entices readers
to decide how much discussion should go
into a particular interest. My feelings
reflect the belief that if there is a
thorn in your sock, seek it out, and
remove the discomfort. A neighbor's
gate, or door may squeak until he moves
away, and with good luck, a repairman
will fill the vacancy. It should be
obvious at this time, that the 3rd, G #
string breakage problem, has become
more accepted as a quirky nuisance that
comes with the business. This consensus is doomed to change, as new concepts are
brought forth. Bill H.




[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 01 September 2001 at 04:54 AM.]



Pat Burns
Member

Posts: 2896
From: Branchville, N.J. USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 31 August 2001 08:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Burns     

...the quantity of my observations has been more than generous, like blessing you with two fruit cakes instead of one, and the value of my contributions could be brought into question if only there was any merit to the question, but I agree they probably have not gone unnoticed, no more than would a passing wind in a house of worship...

...perhaps we should at this time put down the thorns that we have removed from our socks, and when we are moved to open our mouths and let loose our tongues in yet another tedious harangue, to place the socks there instead...I'm ready to mmmmffff, mfmmmfff mmmmmmmmffff...

Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 31 August 2001 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Pat Burns,

For my part, no harangue is tedious
should it come from the lips of an
intellectually guided individual. I
am called upon to respond in that
regard, though misinterpretation is
the evil part of attempting to
convey a message of pure sincerity.
Noteworthiness on human nature, is
best left to the experts. My steel
guitar has always remained steadfast
in terms of perfunctory continuity.
That is the reason for the interest
in the instrument, which has developed
over the years. Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 01 September 2001 at 02:36 PM.]



BobbeSeymour
Member

Posts: 5664
From: Hendersonville TN USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 31 August 2001 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbeSeymour     
Huh?


Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 31 August 2001 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Bobbe Seymour,

I was attempting to thwart criticism,
and pay compliments, to Pat Burns, except something was lost in the
translation. Huh?

Bill H.

Pat Burns
Member

Posts: 2896
From: Branchville, N.J. USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 31 August 2001 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Burns     
...going back to the title of the topic, perhaps this means, to those (such as myself) who can offer no positive suggestions but can only ridicule and find fault with the concepts of someone who is attempting to find new solutions, why do you delight in the attempt to dash the dream of another...have you never had a dream of your own that you wished to share with someone?


Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 31 August 2001 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Pat Burns,

I would never "delight" in dashing or
otherwise become deleterious in my
attempt to relate to others, whose
dreams are so heartfelt and meaningful
in their everyday life. Bill H.


Pat Burns
Member

Posts: 2896
From: Branchville, N.J. USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 31 August 2001 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Burns     
...Pleae read it again, I wasn't referring to you, Bill....I was referring to myself and others who have made light of or found fault with your project...my last comment is an admonition against that, saying that it's your dream...you take it seriously and because you do, it deserves respect...I'll make no more smart-ass comments about it...


Bill Sharpe
Member

Posts: 351
From: Hermitage, TN 37076, USA
Registered:

posted 31 August 2001 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Sharpe     
Perhaps "stop drilling" the 3rd string when it begins to fracture, or adding.....Oops, wrong thread.

------------------
B#




Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 31 August 2001 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Pat Burns,

You can imagine how much better I feel
knowing that your feelings are much the
same as mine on many issues that pertain
to friendship, character, and trust.
Thank you for your help in this matter.

Your friend,
Bill Hankey


Pat Burns
Member

Posts: 2896
From: Branchville, N.J. USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 31 August 2001 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Burns     
Thank you for your kind comments, Bill...and good luck with the pursuit of your dream...once you stop doing that, you might as well be dead...


Jim Bob Sedgwick
Member

Posts: 1234
From: Clinton, Missouri USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 31 August 2001 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Bob Sedgwick     
In all seriousness: I have the prototype "400" key on my Williams guitar. The design does change the right angle on a conventional changer, thereby does lengthen the life of the string. In 10 years, I have broken one string on this finger, and the string should have been off the guitar months before it broke. To me, it's immaterial whether Bill Rudolph designed this for "looks or service." All I know, is this changer will reduce string breakage by at least 50 percent, with no loss of tone. JMO


BobbeSeymour
Member

Posts: 5664
From: Hendersonville TN USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 31 August 2001 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbeSeymour     
You are both totally nuts,However this is a quality I demand in a close friendship. It makes life so very intresting, as you two are so prone to prove. What great entertainment, I'm going to quit my day job just to sit here and follow these exciting exploits. Remember, if the string bends, it WILL break!
Would you really call it a "DAY" job if you used an Emmons pedal setup?
I had a blue right hand drive Rolls-Royce once that had the steering wheel on the right side, Was that called a "DAY" setup? Why is Lloyd left handed and uses a Emmons setup and Jimmy was right handed and used a
Backward, lefthanded setup? Why does the sun shine so brightly, why does th------ Darn, now you two dummys have me doing it!!!
Kissylipper-----


Pat Burns
Member

Posts: 2896
From: Branchville, N.J. USA
Registered: JAN 99

posted 31 August 2001 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Burns     
...."don't they knoooow, it's the ennnnd of the woooorld, it ended when you said...."

....goodbye...

(Let's get out there and win one for the Kipper!)

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 31 August 2001 at 08:33 PM.]



BobbeSeymour
Member

Posts: 5664
From: Hendersonville TN USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 31 August 2001 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbeSeymour     
I may not know a lot however,I did stay at a HolliDAY Inn Express last night!
KrabbyKipperKiss.
(I also know , the string breaks where it bends!)------Duh,


Jeff Lampert
Member

Posts: 2636
From: queens, new york city
Registered: MAY 2000

posted 31 August 2001 10:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jeff Lampert     
Does anyone know what the prize is for the 200th post?


Gene Jones
Member

Posts: 5796
From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
Registered: NOV 2000

posted 01 September 2001 04:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gene Jones     
I grew up in the farm/ranch country of SW Oklahoma helping my dad keep our barbed-wire fences repaired, and I remember that if we were ever without our wirecutters and needed to make a repair, that we could bend a piece of double strand wire back and forth a few times and it would break clean as a whistle!

I understand why that 3rd string has such a short life! www.genejones.com

Paul Graupp
Member

Posts: 3199
From: Macon Ga USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 01 September 2001 07:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Graupp     
G

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 01 September 2001 at 07:20 AM.]



Paul Graupp
Member

Posts: 3199
From: Macon Ga USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 01 September 2001 07:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Graupp     
Gene; Been there, done that ! Thanks for remembering it. It was digging those dam+
holes for the posts that got to me !!

Regards, Paul

Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 01 September 2001 07:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Gene Jones,

When you wrote that your earlier labors
included mending fences, and becoming
somewhat inventive by the misplaced
wire cutters, or side cutters, it made
old memories reappear. I worked as a
helper, years ago, with a fence builder
in Berkshire County. You mentioned
breaking the barbed wire by twisting
and bending. That is quite the same
principle as what takes place on the
original universal changer. Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 01 September 2001 at 06:39 PM.]



Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 01 September 2001 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Jim Bob Sedgwick,

Thank you for the input, which imparts
the premise that the Williams Changer
has virtually eliminated the concerns
that were once associated with the
original universal changer. Apparently
the once irrefutable 3rd string
mystification has become much less of a
problem. Some of its breaking tendencies have been lessened by the
modifications, such as the one you have
referred to. I will be concentrating
mainly on the 3rd string, because of its
infernal history of breakage.
Bill H.


Rick Collins
Member

Posts: 3286
From: Claremont , CA USA
Registered: MAY 2000

posted 02 September 2001 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Collins     
To me, it seems that the repeated bending of an .011" steel string, will eventually cause fatigue and the molecules to separate at that point when stressed. I believe this to be a fact that no amount of "running bull" can obscure.

I have toured Manassas, Virginia and seen the grounds of the battle of Bull Run.
I have seen the "running of the bulls" in Spain. I now believe, after reading this thread, that I have experienced virtual "running bull".

Respectfully, Mr. Bill Hankey, my assessment:

Diagnosis: advanced Montezuma's revenge.

Rx: 1 tbs. of otc Imodium-AD (effective, few contraindications), repeat in 4 hrs. if needed.

Note: Drink plenty of water to replace depleated body fluids.

BTW: #7 isn't always lucky.

Rick

Bill Hankey
Member

Posts: 1680
From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
Registered: APR 2001

posted 03 September 2001 04:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Hankey     

Rick Collins,

Please allow me to respond to the
conjectural inferences, submitted by
you, which are apparently productions
of your thoughts while evaluating the
"LUCKY 7's" practicality, when it is
applied to the 3rd string changer
finger. I'm sure that all steel guitar
enthusiasts have experienced a stinging
moment, while in practice, or at a gig,
but those moments have become obscured
for reasons not known by me. The term
"LUCKY 7" has nothing in common with
good fortune. It merely bears a strong
resemblance to the configuation of the
numeral 7.
Your prescription could very well suit
the needs of someone who experiences a
great need to halt the delimma.
Surely, your comedy routine is very
laughable in itself, however it would
be refreshing and helpful if you were
to submit some of the things that taxes
your patience in connection with the
3rd string replacement during a set.
Bill H.



[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 03 September 2001 at 04:03 AM.]



BJ Bailey
Member

Posts: 1184
From: Jackson Ms,Hinds
Registered: DEC 99

posted 03 September 2001 05:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BJ Bailey     
Gee, I wish I could add to this thread,I would like to see it reach that 200th post?
Let see huuummm,question for Jim Bob.You say your third string had lasted almost ten year's,are did I miss understand?That would be some good mileage on a string.But when you chime'd on your string's did they have that clear lasting ping,or that sudden thump?Now Bill ,it's your dream,concerning the lucky 7 and no one can injoy,or fill the pain of it quite like you do.You might compare this to a songwritter,he pen's his thought's,give's his short story a melody,with a labor of love like a women giveing birth to a child.Thinking that a good song.Only to let someone else read it and reject it.You go with a broken spirit,and put it away in file 13 ?
So it's your baby and you think she's pretty,even if the world thinks she ugly.
Now getting back to the lucky 7, you see Bill, know one see's this like you do?And as for me trying to grasp the idear,I keep cutting myself on that seven,either while tuneing my peddles,or getting my beer from the barmaid.But Bill I say it's your dream

------------------
BJ Bailey


[This message was edited by BJ Bailey on 03 September 2001 at 05:58 AM.]

[This message was edited by BJ Bailey on 03 September 2001 at 06:01 AM.]



BobbeSeymour
Member

Posts: 5664
From: Hendersonville TN USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 03 September 2001 08:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbeSeymour     
OK, I'm going to put this to rest for all time. We are going to do the test to end this discussion with fact. Any input will be welcomed.The test will be to hook up an automatic finger operator to a popular brand steel guitar with a counter to tell how many times the string can be raised from G# to A before it breaks.To show no impartiality, this test will be monitored by several name players ,that we all respect, here in Nashville. Today is labor day and we are closed and the fun work is starting. We'll find out when the string will break and maybe you all would be well advised to also install a counter on your guitars so you will at least know (within a few pulls) when your string will "let go".
Two tests will be run, one with the string being pulled with just a very little angle off the top of the cam,(pull roller, bridge) and one standard placment pull position. The test will be repeted several times using Geo. L ,Cobra Coil,J.Pearce and S.I.T. strings.Results will be posted this coming Thursday on this forum.Anything anyone would like to see incorporated in this test?
Bobbe Seymour


Steve Feldman
Member

Posts: 2983
From: Millbury, MA USA
Registered: DEC 99

posted 03 September 2001 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Feldman     
This kind of encapsulates it for me:
quote:
My steel guitar has always remained steadfast in terms of perfunctory continuity.

I didn't know Norm Crosby played steel....




Gene Jones
Member

Posts: 5796
From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
Registered: NOV 2000

posted 03 September 2001 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gene Jones     
Bobbe, while you are waiting for folks to get their ducks in a row to participate in your test, please allow me to interject a story that is not related, but possibly interesting from a historical viewpoint.

Back in the 50s, Carl Perkins booked in as a single with our house band. This was after his initial success with Blue Suede Shoes when he was "down" and before he was picked back back up by someone (Cash?).

He was accompanied by another guitar player (and a fifth of bourbon)and he filled the time between his two sets backstage demonstrating to the band his "invention", which was some kind of "string stretcher or bender" attached to his guitar neck above the nut that he was convinced was his path to a "million dollar patent".

To shorten the story, that device broke two strings (just like the 3rd on our steels) while he was showing it to us!

Does anyone know anything about that device by Perkins,and was it ever incorporated into anything mfg by anyone, or did he just forget it when he started working again? www.genejones.com

Sage
Member

Posts: 525
From: Boulder, Colorado
Registered: DEC 2000

posted 03 September 2001 09:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sage     
Hey Bobbe- If you go ahead with the test, you might want to start a new thread. This one's been a circle short of a spool for most of the time.
So Bobbe, are you thinking of adding something to a conventional changer finger to reduce the breakover angle of the string, or are you going to have a straight-pull test finger that will be in contrast to the conventional changer fingers?
I agree with you that most of the breaking fatigue comes from the bending and not the stretching. I take it that this is what you wish to put some factual numbers behind.
More power to you, but if it's a nice day outside I think I'd rather be flying (I'm licenced for kites).


Al Udeen
Member

Posts: 1164
From: maple grove mn usa
Registered: AUG 99

posted 03 September 2001 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Udeen     
011s for .25 must be Nickel! Nice markup!


BobbeSeymour
Member

Posts: 5664
From: Hendersonville TN USA
Registered: JAN 2001

posted 03 September 2001 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BobbeSeymour     
Better than quarter strings sold for a nickel? Huh?-----
Where's that kid of yours Al? He hasn't bugged me for a month! I miss him.
Bobbe


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